New Panzer Grenadier Unit in North West UK-Kampfgruppe Luck

[PanzerHauptman]

We have just started a new Panzer Grenadier unit based around the North West, mainly Burnley, Bury, Bolton, Rochdale, Oldham and Manchester. We are members of North West Military Collectors but have formed an independent unit to do battles and also provide an accurate as possible living history display with stricter defined uniforms, insignia and rank structure. We are also talking to some independent film makers about providing them with manpower to complete their film projects.

The unit will take the form of a head quarter troop, from II Battalion, 125 Panzer Grenadier, 21st Panzer Division, Kampfgruppe Luck. Based loosely around Major Hans Von Luck's combat formation we will portray a Panzer Grenadier unit from mid 1944 to 1945. Being 21st Panzer Division we can also cover the North African campaign (DAK) and will develop this side of the group as it expands. We are actively recruiting for this season and welcome all applicants at all levels. We are family unit so WAGs are more that welcome especially if they're interested in portraying Helferin or DRK.

For uniform standards and application details please contact me here:- 21stPanzerDivision@groups.facebook.com

[Hoffman Grink]

Forgive me here but I'm struggling.

You are already members of a club. But you form a new "unit" specifically to "do battles". Does this mean you are simply going to organise battles? Or are you going to apply to join in public displays where a battle display is to be part of that event?

Then - as a purpose formed "battle unit" you are family friendly and invite WAGS along....... I know it looks like I'm being a mardy arse (being from the NW you'll understand that term!) but I genuinely am interested in knowing more about where you're coming from and how you've arrived at the formation of this new unit. What are the WAGs gonna do while you lot are out battling?

125PzGr were motorised/armoured so can we expect to see you tonking about in a 251?

How many of you form the core membership of this new group? Are you self sufficient in legal blank firing weapons or will you be needing to hire?

21 Pz Div is an interesting choice as it was reformed and refitted many times - There is already a 21Pz unit based around Hull - They have a Marder and I believe a Goliath which would be useful for the OstFront scenario...... as it is believed they operated Goliaths from Tigers.

I'd definitely be interested in knowing more - especially your Liechte Division impression. It seems to be a growing theme.

[PanzerHauptman]

Hi Hoffman, thanks for your questions, I'll bullet point them and try to answer them as best I can and answer them respectively:

1. North West Military Collectors are an already existing group and have been for some time and are our parent unit, we do battles and living history over many shows over the year. We have an open policy on uniforms which make it difficult to organise shows sometimes. We already cover SS, Fallschirmjager American Airborne and Ranger units but a lot of events are now restricting SS, for that reason we have now started a specific unit to address this issue and that is a Panzer Grenadier unit as previously described.

2. We are a family oriented group and as such wives and girlfriends (and many kids have grown into the group too) are very welcome. In the American units some portray medics but we have neither medics or Helferin in the German units so would be interested in recruiting some. Those not wishing to participate either stay in the tents, caravans or walk round the shows etc. when we battle.

3. As For vehicles we have a Kubelwagen and are looking at acquiring another vehicle, a 251 maybe economically unviable so possibly a 221/2 or a 247B.

4. Core membership at the moment is 13 but will overlap with our pre-existing members so could fluctuate due to show/battle commitments. We are fully self sufficient with both deac, replica, blank and gas firing guns.

5. I know the other group from Hull who are members of the Northern World War Two Association. You'd be hard pressed to find a nicer and more knowledgeable group who are as hospitable as they are professional. I spent some time with them last year and they have been both a big help and influence on my decision to form the unit we have. Our two groups sometimes battle together and we have done this to hopefully compliment them and have adopted a similar uniform and rank structure for that reason. Their members are welcome to battle or attend shows with us at any time and we are working towards building close ties with them.

Hope that helps.

[Hoffman Grink]

Vielen Danke Kamerad PanzerHauptmann!

Sounding good and I look forward to seeing you out and about in 2011. Such a shame you hadn't posted this earlier as there is a Nord Afrika/Tunis battle at a show in June but it's already been "staffed" as it were........ Ain't that the way?

Nevertheless - It's nice to see someone branching out and doing something "out there" - and being so well organised too. Just one tiny thought occurs - but I think I'm going to answer my own question - Most battles being Normandie based - you will be in Feldgrau most of the time I take it?

[PanzerHauptman]

uniform standards are

1. Parkas (Reversible) - Tan water or splinter pattern
2. Other cam - splinter
3. Field grey uniforms - HBT summer and wool for winter.

Appropriate personal gear and no awards rank or medals unless earned and awarded.

[Hoffman Grink]

uniform standards are

1. Parkas (Reversible) - Tan water or splinter pattern
2. Other cam - splinter
3. Field grey uniforms - HBT summer and wool for winter.

Appropriate personal gear and no awards rank or medals unless earned and awarded.

A rather simplistic uniform standard if I might say so.
Parkas were an "issued on need" item and usually came as a set with trousers. If you do a search on here someone some while back posted the issue to and from dates when they would be available. They would be issued out for bad weather and then gathered back in on or before a certain date. Far too bulky for an infantryman to carry in his kit.
Your other cam - Splinter - is a far better bet - Remember it would be more likely than anything, a zeltbahn or in rare cases (but not the PzGr) a tabard. (seen below on members of 200 Pz Jg Btn)


This photo is probably of the men you are portraying

And this look is a very desirable and authentic one. Not easy to achieve

Uniforms, were I you I would stick to wools - and M43 tunics at that seeing as they would have been refitted in 44 itself.

125 Pz Gr composed of the following as of Mar 44

Staff
Staff Company
Signals Platoon
Panzerjäger Platoon
Pioneer Platoon
Motorcycle Platoon
Infantry Gun Company (self propelled)
Nebelwerfer Company (half-track)
Battalion (half-track)
3 x Company (half-track)
Heavy Company (half-track)
Panzerjäger Platoon
Flak Platoon
Panzerzerstörer Section
Battalion (mot)
3 x Company (mot)
Heavy Company (half-track)
Panzerjäger Platoon
Flak Platoon
Panzerzerstörer Section

Should give you a wide range of options to base your portrayal on. I agree - 251a (OT810s) are hard to come by and a swine to transport but never say never........ In fact one may come up for sale this year - you never know. Heia Safari!

[PanzerHauptman]

Cheers for that, you've found exactly the same photos that I have to use as a reference. Much appreciated all the same.

[Hoffman Grink]

Here are some more of the Panzer Jaeger being inspected by Rommel



Sonderbekleidungen fur Panzertruppen as well as fur Panzerjaeger are being worn and you'll see the tabards are not so muc camo as a protective overgarment. Of note are the camo helmets though.

Here's one taken at the Famous Pegasus Bridge at Benouville - of a Marder from 21Pz Div being directed by a grenadier - feldgrau is evident.


You'll probably have guessed that 21 Pz Div is a pet subject of mine - I think it stems from my dad bringing me home a DAK cap from a Leichte Division veteran he knew - the cap's long gone - as an 8 year old I wore it day in day out and to be honest I don't know where it went.......

[Stigroadie]

2. Other cam - splinter

If you are going for the immediate D-day 21st Panzer div panzer grenadier look then Sumpf is an equally valid pattern for smocks which were worn by many of the 21st at this time.
Why? Smocks are considered 'rare' and not for every day re-enacting of das Heer and why Sumpf? I agree, most men in the Heer never saw a smock, but for certain elements of 21st around D-Day they are almost a requirement.
Why, not sure, but I have a hypothesis.
Much of 21st Panzer inc. Herr Lucks command were on exercise when the British landed. Camo was for the most part issued for operations and then returned to stores? It would appear that an issue was made to the 21st's grenadiers for this exercise. It would also seem that many of those who got it, got sumph.
Even in some of the poor photos of the time the sumpf is easy to spot, the 'fuzzy' nature of the pattern and the fact that the greater number of sumpf smocks were fitted with a hood set it apart from the splinter version.
Evidence? Well, there are a couple of quite famous pictures of captured British Airborne troops being moved through a Normandy town, Saint-Pierre-sur-Dives I believe. We know who was stationed there dont we? Should do if we plan on re-enacting 21stPzrDiv. Almost ever German guarding this procession clearly has a sumpf smock on.
The only troops likely to have been issued smocks in the area and at the time the British Airborne dropped was 21st Panzer.
Yup, some broad brush strokes there and some conjecture but hunt out the images, I cant find them on google but Heimdal and H&C have both used them. They credit copyright to ECPAD
HG, the photo you show of the two men in zelts, one with field glasses? I have seen that attributed to the 116th Panzer div. before now.

[West-Front]

You'll probably have guessed that 21 Pz Div is a pet subject of mine.......

Same sequence as you posted PD, but I know your a fan of the early style cocking handle on the mg42

Cam

person_rommel27.jpg (57.32 KiB) Viewed 7246 times

[Stigroadie]

A little bit more research to back up my hypothesis has turned up another photo of 21st Panzer Div. soldiers in Sumpf on D-Day.
Leutnant Hoeller of 192 Rgt was photographed just south of the British lines near Benouville wearing?????
Yup, Sumpf smock with hood.
Major Von Lucks 2iC, Helmut Leibeskind of 125 Rgt was seen wearing a custom made splinter top, more tunic than smock, with the rank insignia for camouflage uniforms showing his rank of Ober Leutnant. It uses the same white zippers seen so often for front closure and at least one chest pocket.
Lt. Bandomir also of 125Rgt but 3rd company also wore a custom splinter smock. His seems to have elastic cuffs [perhaps SS style and tucked back and under]and a zippered front closure.
Additional; Both custom splinter tops have collars.

[PanzerHauptman]

Thanks very much for all the input on my posting guys, it's very much appreciated.

[Hoffman Grink]

Well lets face it mate - not many people have the cahunas to get a new unit up and running these days - And roger me sideways with a Romanian Radish Farmer's Clunge Dibbler - It's not an SS one - So it's worth helping with perhaps the odd snippet you've missed - Proper looking forwards to seeing this one.