21 Pz Div

[Hoffman Grink]

Notable at the moment by their absence on here are the intrepid warriors of the recently formed 21 PzDiv. Most of them originally and expertly trained in their art by the Windhund...
Now me being a bit of a purist I've been researching and I have some questions for the more bookish amongst you.....
These hardy Northern lads plan to operate a Marder III which they have built on a Striv using a Pak40. They title themselves PanzerJaeger.....
Can anyone substantiate for me two things?
1 Did Marder III of the model they are building use Pak40 or Pak36(r)?
2 Did 21 Pz Div use Marders?

As far as I can find - and I have decent library as well as Google - 21 Pz Div in 1944 (the period the lads do) were constituted thus

Panzer Regiment 100
PanzerGrenadier Regiment 125
PanzerGrenadier Regiment 192
PanzerAufklarungs Abteilung 200
PanzerPioniere Abteilung 220
Sturmgeschutze Abteilung 200
Panzer Artillerie Regiment 155

No mention of PanzerJaeger..... Shame the little tank will never be likely to come South....... It would look good hunting Shermans Darn Sarf!!!!

I can find reference to Pz Rgt 100 being renumbered to 22 and being re-equipped in 1943 with obsolete French Tanks. It was then refitted and redesignated 100 in summer 44 - It then recieved PzKw IVB and IVC which were also obsolete as well as some PzKw III.... If anyone can enlighten me on these questions I'd be grateful - It's nice to get some background on who's doing what.

The vehicle that sparked it off..



A nice period pic of a Marder III


source klub.chip.pl/ krzemek/marder3.htm

Here's an AusfH that they lads are building


source (as above)

[LAH650]

21st Panzer, as I understand it was issued mainly with French SP conversions for D-Day and beyond....

What they got as post d-day re-fit is unclear but I see no ref. to Mraders of any type.

June to August '44

http://spearhead1944.com/gerpg/ger1.htm

6-6-44

http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normand ... gerob.html

Select Pz Div and 21st...

[Jon Das Reich]

As i know it 21st panzer werent issued any marders at all all they had were captured French tanks etc.

[Hoffman Grink]

Thanks guys - I was fairly sure of the Marder issue (or rather lack of it) but what puzzles me is the inclusion of Panzerjaeger both as a designatioin of troops and as a unit. 21Pz Div do not appear to have had any such unit. The nearest they have is a StuG Abt.

As I write above - There is evidence and record that they were issued MkIII & MkIV tanks after their initial issue of French models.... (I'm researching to find their losses - which might tell me types and numbers) But this Marder is a 38(t) - I am also looking to find which units were issued with and used Marder 38(t) AusfH.

It would appear though from initial probings that it would not have been correct for our group to have the Marder either.... PzJgBt 228 (not Abt as previously advertised - pays to do your own homework and not believe others) hd a rough time of it and in the OOB did not exist at Sept 1944.
I have records showing the 116 used Pz V, PzIV, StuGIII, PzJgIV and for Sturmartillerie - Hummel and Wespe but likewise no 38(t)

It's good to research things thoroughly.

[LAH650]

Paul,

I'm sure you've seen this....


http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79355

Marder III [7.5cm gun] with 151 units on the Western Front

JUNE 1944:
SS PJAbt. 17 [17. SSPGD] with 3 units with 7.62cm gun
SS PJAbt. 17 [17. SSPGD] with 9 units
PJAbt. 243 [243. ID] with 14 units
PJAbt. 346 [346. ID] with 14 units
PJAbt. 352 [352. VGD] with 14 units
PJAbt. 353 [353. ID] with 14 units
PJAbt. 709 [709. ID] with 9 units
PJAbt. 716 [716. VGD] with 10 units

JULY 1944:
PzGrenRgt. 156 [116. PD] with 3 units
PzGrenRgt. 60 [116. PD] with 3 units
PJAbt. 326 [326. VGD] with 14 units

AUGUST 1944:
PJAbt. 50 [9. PD] with 9 units
PJAbt. 51 [11. PD] with 2 units
PJAbt. 331 [331. ID] with 14 units

SEPTEMBER 1944:
PzGrenRgt. 2112 [Pz. Brigade 112] with 2 units

OCTOBER 1944:
none

NOVEMBER 1944:
none

DECEMBER 1944:
PJAbt. 3 [3. PGD] with 7 units
PJAbt. 246 [246. VGD] with 8 units
PJAbt. 1553 [553. VGD] with 2 units

JANUARY 1945:
none

FEBRUARY 1945:
none

MARCH 1945:
none

APRIL 1945:
none

MAY 1945:
none

[Hoffman Grink]

Thanks Andy!
July 44 is interesting and adds to my types of vehicle in use by the 116. The two Pz Gr Rgts had 3 each..... not the PzJg Abt/Btn..... Interesting....
So my earlier posts stands correction - Using them badged as Windhund IS historically accurate.
Well, well, well.

[Jon Das Reich]

This ite says they had the Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200
in 44-45

http://www.feldgrau.com/PzDiv.php?ID=21

[Jon Das Reich]

this is a good site

http://spearhead1944.com/gerpg/ger1.htm

Panzer-Jaeger Abt 200 (Major Becker)

Bttn HQ: 1 HQ Stand in Half-track

3 Batteries each with: 2 88mm ATG & French Laffly Tractors.

Prior to June, organized as two 3-stand batteries.

[LAH650]

Marder with the 21st Panzer Divsion...

21. Panzer Division
Panzerkampfwagen 35S 739(f)
Panzerkampfwagen 39H 735(f)
Flammenwerferpanzer Renault B1/B2 (f)
Panzerbeobachtungswagen auf 35/38/39H(f)
Großer Funk- & Beobachtungspanzer Lorraine-S (f)
10,5cm leFH18/40 auf Geschützwagen 38H (f)
10,5cm leFH18 auf Geschützwagen Lorraine
15cm sFH13/1 auf Geschützwagen Lorraine
8cm Reihen Vielfachwerfer auf SPW Somua S303/307 (f)
8cm Vielfachwerfer Mörser auf SPW Somua S303/307 (f)
7,5cm Pak40 auf PzKpfw 38H (f) "Marder I (SdKfz 135)"
7,5cm Pak40 auf PzKpfw 39H (f) "Marder I (SdKfz 135)"
7,5cm Pak40/1 auf Geschützwagen Lorraine "Marder I (SdKfz 135)"
7,5cm Pak40 (Sf) auf mSPW S307(f)
4,7cm Pak(t) auf PzKpfw 35R (f)
Zugkraftwagen P107 U304(f)
Zugkraftwagen Somua MCL S303 (f)
Zugkraftwagen Somua MCG S307(f)
leSPW U304(f)
leSPW U304(f) (Fkl)
leSPW U304(f) (FlaK 38 )
leSPW U304(f) (PaK 36)
leSPW U304(f) (8cm GrW)
mSPW S303(f)
mSPW S303(f) (Pionier)
mSPW S307(f)
Softskins : 21. PzD had over 50 different softskin types (mainly French, but also some Italian ones) including Citroën, Laffly and Renault trucks. Unic-Kégresse P107 and Somua MCL & MCG softskin halftracks as well as Somua SPWs were very common.


-http://www.panzergrenadier.net/coppermi ... l_21st.jpg




Marder I's not Marder III's

[LAH650]

OOpppsss link

http://www.specialcamp11.fsnet.co.uk/Ge ... tinger.htm


21st Pz. Dv. Co. from 1943...



Look a the line for 5th Jan 1945....

[Vinny]

Morning gents, Some facts about the 21st Panzer Div use of the Marder III Ausf. H you've missed:

Figures:
21. Pz.Div. 2./Pz.Jg.Abt.39 received nine Marder III Ausf. H in March 1943 , all were lost after fierce fighting in Tunisia.

21. Pz.Div. Pz.Jg.Abt. 200 March 15th 1945 were issued 3 Marder III Ausf. H.

If you would like to read further on the 21st Panzer Div and the type of vehicles they used in detail, id recommend the following publications.

Nuts and Bolts #18:Marder III Part 2, Ausf. H and 7.5cm Pak 40 (No ISBN) - Fantastic book, detailed photos and variant deployment details,
details of the Marder Ausf H use by the 21st.

21st Panzer Division 284048157X - very detailed book covering every aspect, battle, units of the 21st - again details of the Marder Ausf H use by the 21st. some great photos, even a afrika cuff title been worn on a field grey panzer wrap in 1945.

Panzer Truppen: The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force: 1933-1942 v. 1 no armour book collection should be without this set!

Panzer Truppen: The Complete Guide to the Creation and Combat Employment of Germany's Tank Force: 1943-1945 v. 2 0764300806 details of the Marder Ausf H use by the 21st Pz. Div.



so did you reach a conclusion to the use of this type of tank by the 21st?

[Hoffman Grink]

Good Morning yourself "Vinny"
And your point exactly is?
The references of the books are fine. What we completely uneducated flounderers in the world of re-enactment are trying to ascertain is - Is that model of base tank, coplued with that configuratin of armour and that nomenclature of gun, an accurate rendition of the vehicles used in Normandy.

Your first reference indeed states, the Marders of this type issued in Nord Afrika were lost in Tunisia..... So no need to include that as we are concerned with the Normandy aspect. I see now that a planned DAK impression is in the offing.... cool but not many sandpits hold WWII weekends.... and the wind will blow the palm trees over in the wadi at shows in Northumberland!

This topic had sort of died as interest was low. Thanks for reviving it. It will be interesting to see if anyone provides pictorial reference or some other concrete proof to substantiate this particular restoration and the context it is planned to be displayed in.

I see you joined yesterday - Out of interest are you a member of 21Pz Div?

[Vinny]

thought my point was perfectly clear?


"1 Did Marder III of the model they are building use Pak40 or Pak36(r)?
2 Did 21 Pz Div use Marders?"

"Is that model of base tank, coupled with that configuration of armour and that nomenclature of gun, an accurate rendition of the vehicles used in Normandy"

Yes, but thats already been answered

"It will be interesting to see if anyone provides pictorial reference or some other concrete proof to substantiate this particular restoration and the context it is planned to be displayed in"

check the reference books detailed

"I see you joined yesterday - Out of interest are you a member of 21Pz Div?"

Yes im a member of the 21st Panzer, but you'd know that already as most were "Originally and Expertly trained in the art by the Windhund"

[Hoffman Grink]

As no one of the name "Vinny" was ever a member of Der Windhund - No one could expect to know anything. Marder is looking good - Due to make the long haul to Fort Paull I believe - Will it be viewable anywhere else?

[Hoffman Grink]

I see the website of 21 Pz Dib has changed again.... Now it's no longer advertising the NWWII Association but just the Potted Palm Brigade -erm - sorry - Afrika Korps!

Web site will be nice when it's finished - Lots of dead links etc. Lots of spellos too..... I'm looking forward to seeing a nice DAK exhibition at Beltring this year..... With a Marder on it..... Might be letting the cat out of the bag but it might have a bit of competition with a certain Jagdpanther making an appearance!!! Good old 411!