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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:48 pm 
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Thanks Les :wink:

Regards Pipes

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:56 pm 
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les hearn wrote:
so it can be said that the whole German army had some sort of "mutiny" inside.

No Les, it really cant be said because it isnt true.
This division was setting a trend, doing it before and in more depth than all the others? The later collapse was just following their example?

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:04 pm 
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Stigroadie wrote:
les hearn wrote:
so it can be said that the whole German army had some sort of "mutiny" inside.

No Les, it really cant be said because it isnt true.
This division was setting a trend, doing it before and in more depth than all the others? The later collapse was just following their example?


As far as i know Stig, Les is right the Handschar had a mutiny at Villafranche in 44,
before they were sent back to the front, afterwards the ringleaders were executed
and the SS had a purge of the Unit, anyone found unsuitable were sent to Penal Div's
or enforced Reich Labour work!!!

Pipes :wink:

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"Stride with proud disdain through the swamp of human inadmissibility" Jochen Peiper 1915-1976
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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:15 pm 
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Yes, the handschar did have a mutiny but that isnt what I'm commenting on is it.
I copied the bit I'm commenting on to make it clear, or so I had hoped. The whole of the German army did not have some sort of mutiny.
is that more clearer???


My mother used to say about people 'They would try the patience of a saint'. I'm starting to understand that now.

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:59 pm 
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Stigroadie wrote:
les hearn wrote:
so it can be said that the whole German army had some sort of "mutiny" inside.

No Les, it really cant be said because it isnt true.
This division was setting a trend, doing it before and in more depth than all the others? The later collapse was just following their example?



ok

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:25 pm 
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Maybe Ive spent too much time on the axis history forum.

Can any of you people back up your claims with actual proof?

What desertion trend was Handschar starting?
When entire countries were switching sides and became allied with the western powers in that time period.
As I said before, they werent desertions, it was a refusal to move out of Bosnia. Officers were court martialed and executed over this. The orders were given to move to Croatia, and no one obeyed them.
The DIVISION DID NOT have a mutiny. It was a single company of the Pioniere battalion.
I dont know why people have this idea that every battalion got together and killed some of it's officers. I assure it was the smallest scale desertion that would occur. Most important of all, whats never mentioned is that it was the Bosnians that rose up and eliminated the mutineers.

Even Himmler had a better understanding of the situation than most of you.
“I knew there was a chance that a few traitors might be smuggled into the division, but I haven’t the slightest doubt concerning the loyalty of the Bosnians. These troops were loyal to their supreme commander twenty years ago, so why shouldn’t they be so today?”




Sauberzweig, the most known commander of the division went on to lead another formation somewhere else, where opened up his sector to the Americans and turned his men over to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:49 am 
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Question : did the men of handchar respected ramadham ?

please get the 'fanatic' word out of your head as following a religion does not make you a fanatic. Christians and other faiths who believe in a god or pray to god in desperate situations or simply saying a pray before going to bed , is the same sence as a muslim praying to mecca ,I am trying to gather an understanding to how 'muslim' hitlers muslims were .


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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:42 am 
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42gunner wrote:
Maybe Ive spent too much time on the axis history forum. Not enough to learn what a sidearm is?

Can any of you people back up your claims with actual proof? Can you though? Is what is posted proof only if you agree with it and everything you dont agree with is anti-Handscar propaganda?

What desertion trend was Handschar starting? They were not, that was a devise used to show how ridiculous another statement was. We use ridicule and satire and sometimes irony to get people to look at other sides of a coin.
When entire countries were switching sides and became allied with the western powers in that time period.
As I said before, they werent desertions, it was a refusal to move out of Bosnia. When you are in an army you do not get to chose where or who you fight. This refusal alone is enough to make the division useless to the high commandOfficers were court martialed and executed over this. The orders were given to move to Croatia, and no one obeyed them. Well that is mutiny, there were very well supported [by evidence]desertions, those that occurred when they faced the Soviets?
The DIVISION DID NOT have a mutiny. It was a single company of the Pioniere battalion. But which division were they a part of? It is common to say there was a mutiny in Division X if one part of Division X mutinied
I dont know why people have this idea that every battalion got together and killed some of it's officers. Where is this idea to be found? I dont see it here in this thread?I assure it was the smallest scale desertion that would occur. Most important of all, whats never mentioned is that it was the Bosnians that rose up and eliminated the mutineers. That goes against the reports I saw which says the germans suppressed the mutiny

Even Himmler had a better understanding of the situation than most of you. You think history puts weight and value on the statements of Himmler? You need to find a better and more reputable source than a mad man such as he.
“I knew there was a chance that a few traitors might be smuggled into the division, but I haven’t the slightest doubt concerning the loyalty of the Bosnians. These troops were loyal to their supreme commander twenty years ago, so why shouldn’t they be so today?”

I'm pretty much done with this thread, it is clear to me that you have one very fixed and because of your connection to the division, biased view. Anything that shows handschar in bad light you see as anti propaganda. You must also see that what we get coming from you is lots of pro propaganda? My view of history comes from looking at both sides of each story, as best I can, and considering the evidence. We are not obliged to take your version on faith and dispense with unbiased well written histories.




Sauberzweig, the most known commander of the division went on to lead another formation somewhere else, where opened up his sector to the Americans and turned his men over to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:58 am 
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Stigroadie wrote:

I'm pretty much done with this thread, it is clear to me that you have one very fixed and because of your connection to the division, biased view. Anything that shows handschar in bad light you see as anti propaganda. You must also see that what we get coming from you is lots of pro propaganda? My view of history comes from looking at both sides of each story, as best I can, and considering the evidence. We are not obliged to take your version on faith and dispense with unbiased well written histories.


Fair play, not the end of the world, everybody has their own view !! :roll:

In retrospect the Handschar did fight for the most part and in some cases against over
whelming odds, although there was a lot of desertion which can't be denied even before
the documented "Villafranche mutiny" as already stated!!

In my opinion i think this was more due to religious and nationalistic reasons than the fact
that some of the Handschar members were cowards?, this is going from documented orders
issued from the "Grand Mufti" that the Handschar members were not to leave their Country
and fight elsewhere but to defend their homelands instead!!

Cheers Pipes :wink:

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"Stride with proud disdain through the swamp of human inadmissibility" Jochen Peiper 1915-1976
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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:52 pm 
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10 years of actual research and proof behind me and people still believe the top 3 rumors about the division.
mutiny, ineffective, deserters

I've shown proof behind my claims, from actual people that were there.


I've asked you to prove your side, and you failed there.
simple as that.
The book Himmler's Bosnian Division isnt propaganda, its a neutral book.
it proves you wrong in your claims. Thats where my facts are coming from.

so open up the book, give me the sources, or something to back up your claims.

furthermore, why would they want to be burning down villages and murdering, when for the most part they were fighting in their own neighberhoods defending their own people?

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Last edited by 42gunner on Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:01 pm 
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ill leave you boys to it,


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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:45 pm 
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Hans Gowert wrote:
Question : did the men of handchar respected ramadham ?

please get the 'fanatic' word out of your head as following a religion does not make you a fanatic. Christians and other faiths who believe in a god or pray to god in desperate situations or simply saying a pray before going to bed , is the same sence as a muslim praying to mecca ,I am trying to gather an understanding to how 'muslim' hitlers muslims were .

Yes they Did Tom Bosnian Muslims converted to Islam in gratitude of the Turkish Ottoman Empire who had show tolerance to their earlier Bogomil faith the Tombs can still be seen today
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Photo came from this site http://secretdalmatia.wordpress.com/201 ... matia-com/

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:07 pm 
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Question, why do i portray Handshar. Answer, because i can, its a hobby. I do gebirgsjager and wanted to learn about other divisions, this includes SS units.
The amount of MOPs and reenactors who ask what i am portraying can lead to most of them not knowing about the amount of foreign volunteers in the German army.
I also have the same reaction when i am dressed as a vicar.


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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:20 pm 
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42gunner wrote:
Do some research and stop reading from serbianna.com and other propaganda sites....that's as politely as I can say it.
Or read this thread.
http://panzergrenadier.net/forum/viewto ... 25&t=13540

I need your source on the murders and retreats in the face of the enemy.
Single battalions of Handschar stood in face of entire partisan divisions during the summer of 1944, inflicting heavy casualties while suffering a few wounded. During it's first 2-3 weeks of existance, 80 Iron Crosses were awarded.
By May of 1944, a huge proportion of Regt. 28 rated to wear the Anti Partisan Badge alone.


No link to the Arab insurgents and Jihad can be drawn from Handschar period.
Do some research.



Some of US have done some research !
A partisan division was not like a army Division the numbers could be as little as 150 or 1500 men that should be made clear from the start should it not ?



Quote:
No link to the Arab insurgents and Jihad can be drawn from Handschar period.

Alija Izetbegovic ? name ring any bells ???

I have done a Little research I was there in 1994,1995, and 1997 I have walked the areas that Handschar fought and had all the talks by the UN .

If well lead they were good troops for the job they were tasked to do and that was anti partisan . It was what they were raised to do the idea was this would then in turn free up other German units for service in Russia
Atrocities yes they did some but they were amateurs compaired with Ustasha and SS Skanderbeg

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 Post subject: Re: Handschar Division
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:36 pm 
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I've ordered another copy of Himmlers Bosnian Division, time to re-read it i think.
Perish the thought that I be accused of being closed minded? :shock:

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