uniform camo italian

[supermario]

(right)comparison of original wartime italian camouflage panzer coverall (left) with modief post-war italian coverall (right). by a dealer,
who added blue-grey glass german buttons and replaced the cloth epaulettes with german-style epaulette attchachment loops and pebble finish buttons. the large cargo pockets on the legs. and the brighter sage green shade tending almost towards a drab turquoise, are also characteristic of post-war italian camouflage italian suits.

The camo suit on the left is actually a San Marco Marine overall, circa 1960 -70. It is a totally different pattern to the classic Telo tenda. Look at the relation of the tan segments to the brown. They are seperate, were as in classic telo tenda pattern, the tan sections are nominally semi surrounded by the brown. The suti on the right is WW2 colouration. I have seen very tan patches on original telo tenda's (Not 'Zelts' -Lets use the apporopriate nomincluture when in the Italian section, if you please gentlemen ). The big give away is in the 'twig'element of the pattern. I will post up some pictures later once i'm home from work to explain all.

I've checked out Caens site.

Bravo Caen. Excellent work. I hope my imput will be of help to you.

Neil

[Hans Gowert]

very informative post neil,

thank you,

how much do original square italian tent sections go for these days ?

Tom

[supermario]

Tom,

Originals can go for about £80 to £120 pounds now. You see, it criminal to cut up original Telo Tenda's for uniform items. Post war will go for about £13. However, as you are about to see, there are differences.

Ok, this is what i mean by the 'Twig' Element.



The small protrusion on the 29 pattern camo. This features in all types, war time/Post war and repro, but the main factor is the 'Crispness' and more angular definition of Wartime pattern.



Ok. The Pattern on the left is post war, the one on the right is wartime. Note the subtle differences. The Post war one (And this is the closest to wartime that i possess) is more 'Blobby' in pattern. The print is also slightly larger. Hard to tell, but i'll demonstrate that later.



Ok, here is the type of postwar camo you see alot of German SS reenactors wear (left camo).
Its hideous, produced in the psychedelic 60's. The twig elements are even larger on this pattern. You will see that they are fatter and more rounded than wartime, as well as the earlier post war pattern above. The colour needs no defending. Its foul.



Here is an image close up of Wartime pattern. Note the crisp edges. A little leaching has accured, but not to smudge out the pattern. No post war pattern has this crispness, and no repro (Except Chens, it seems) carries this sharp edge off at all.



Ok. Here is a direct comparison of original Wartime 29 pattern (left), next to SM wholesales camo off the roller (right). I have a quantity of this material, in order to make Italian items (No, none of it is for sale i'm afraid). Please note the difference in crispness, as well as the size of the print compared to the original. Sm's colour isn't bad at all. My shelter has seen active service in WW2, and is allowed to look a little tired and faded next to freshly printed material. However, one word of caution. The green used by SM can be judged to border the olive side alittle too much. It does need to be a little more Grigio Verde. However, its still a good and honest repro.



Hmmm. The money shot, if you will. This is an early post war Telo, compared to SM's camo. The pattern is practically identical. It is fair to say that SM copied post war patterns, rather than a wartime one. They did make the twig element narrower, which is too their credit, but not narrow enough to be confused with WW2 issue.



Ok. The second money shot.......The lower telo is WW2. Note the edges. This is the exact width of the rollers in WW2. There is a brown edge to the pattern that runs all the way down on both sides of the camoflage. This is not present in the SM repro, and neither is it present in Post war telo's.



This is a post war example at the bottom of the pic, with Sm wholesale repro above it. You can see the pattern is identical.

However.

Whats with the 'extra' pattern to the left? The post war one is also at the limit of the printing roller, but some one at SM decided to make a 'link' for the camo. This is understandable for cost, but as wartime trousers came off a roll with the brown border, then some people will be running around with trousers that have a camoflage element that didn't exist in the period. Stitch nazi or what!!

So why did the Italians change the pattern (slightly) post war?

Its the brown strip down the middle.

This picture isn't the best, but its one i've borrowed from a feloow Italian reenactors site that goes some way to show the brown strip phenomena.



Essentially, the strip was to obvious. It messed up the camoflage effect by leaving and indellable man made mark. Technically, a straight line. Thats why it was removed and the pattern enlarged post war.

Neil

[Sean]

Bravo! That is a smashing post.

[BERG]

Grazie supermario, very informative!

[pirschen]

oh,I think I must post my Italian camo fabric for compare:)

[supermario]

Thanks for posting that picture Pirschen, it makes your camo a lot clearer.

The pattern looks excellent. Colour is good too. I'm liking this. Just a shame its all going to be SS trousers, jackets and caps.

A nice Decima Mas caped Guibba with camo M41 pantoloons wouldn't go amiss.


What about using the pattern you have to make some Paratrooper jump smocks? The base colour would need to be different, as well as the smaller blotches. The material would have to be a cotton twill (Jacket weight) as well. Is this possible?



I can help with the pattern. I've studied the two originals at the IWM extensively and have lots of photo's and measurements.



The only true way to wear Italian Camo.

So, in conclusion to my thoughts on the subject of Italian camo and whats correct, i think Pirschens version is excellent, and more in keeping with the original pattern first designed and produced in 1929. The crispness of the pattern is sound. This fabric would be good for any SS uniform item. SM Wholesales camo also has its plus points. It leads itself more towards late war manufacture (44 - 45), when the Italian printing equipment was supposed to have been moved (There isn't really any proof that this happened, its just speculation), and hurried processes by inexperienced printers would lead to bleeding and leeching of the fabric. This can been seen in some German camo patterns, and certainly occurred in Italian factories too. As my impression is early war, i would go for Pirschens. However, its down to the individual, and what kind of impression they wish to convey. I'm not advocating any dealer is better than the other, just my preference and opinion.

Neil

[Pug42]

A Five-Star, A-Plus summary of Italian camo for the rest of us, Neil!

There will henceforth be no further disagreements about Italian patterns and colours...

I have now established that my single Italian telo tendo is an early postwar example, so thanks!

[BERG]

The pattern looks excellent. Colour is good too. I'm liking this. Just a shame its all going to be SS trousers, jackets and caps.

A nice Decima Mas caped Guibba with camo M41 pantoloons wouldn't go amiss.

Quoted from milice* at the comandosupremo forum:

Excillent news! I heard from Chen that he will be saelling the camo smock used by the "Decima". For
any of you who want to reenact this unit the smock is almost a must! The way you can tell it's the
"Decima" style is because it has that "sahriana"-style cape on the shoulders.

Milice

It would be great to see a good repro of this smock on the market!

[supermario]

Thanks for the comments.

I am no expert in this. All i'm doing is pointing out what i've found out from collector friends and what other experts in the field have pointed out to me. For me the one true defining feature is the shape of the pattern. Colour will always be a sticky point with Italian camo, but as long as most vendors produce something along the colours that Caen44 has pointed out with the correct pattern, then everyone is a winner.

Neil

[A.Weiss]

Hi Neil,

A great lesson on italian camo, congratulations!

A.Weiß

[Sean]

Just a quick question (and i hope you dont mind me using the photos, but it explains my question alot better!)

Basically, the pattern that has been circled repeats it's self alot on the material. Am I being an eejit but is this some form of manufacturing error or was all the material printed the same way?

[supermario]

The camo repeats as Italian camo was printed off the roller. Most WW2 camoflages use this technique (Slpinter A and B for example). Not sure that SS camo was intially roller printed but i know that the black dye on plane tree camo was screen printed, giving a much more varied camo effect.

Neil

[Hans Gowert]

probably one of the most decent posts on here mario,

super informative and awnsers alot of questions,!!
Tom

[dagda]

Absolutely superb! Ive a bit of thing for Italian camo!! Great work!