Trousers question

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jmatchlock
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Trousers question

Post by jmatchlock »

Have ben looking on the web and can not find information on the Finnish army trousers .any one have information or phots ?
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Pirkka
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Re: Trousers question

Post by Pirkka »

The M36 trouser came in three types: straight leg, cut like a normal pair of pants, Sapaahousut, jodphur-cut like German officer's trousers or Soviet sharovari but with a normal fly, and riding breeches, cut exactly like Saapahousut but with a buttoned flap instead of a fly. (A finnish veteran I spoke to said it was to make urinating off horseback easier. I don't know if that's true or whether he was pulling my leg).
The trousers were cut in steel grey cloth, of varying shades as has been discussed before due to a large number of manufacturers.
However, reading through 'The Unknown Soldier' again, I was struck by this quote, written of the men getting ready for war in August 1941:
'No pressed trousers here. Legs were encased, some in brown British gaiters, some in civilian trousers, some in gray army issue.The only articles all wore in common were a cap, a summer blouse and a belt'.
This ties in with a story told by another veteran, that from 1943 onwards, supply of uniform items was so bad that his unit were allowed to substitute grey civilian trousers (usually the bottom half of an old suit) for army issue while in the front lines, and keep the issue ones for going on leave or parades. This leaves the interesting situation that the army wore civilian clothes for fighting and military ones for visiting the civilian world.
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Kyrl
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Re: Trousers question

Post by Kyrl »

Hello,
I have a few questions about the trousers used by the Finns (especially during Winter War which is my main interest).

Here is what I know, please correct me if I'm wrong:
-Originally the straight trousers were for officers and the breeches for the soldiers, but then (when?), soldiers were allowed to wear straight ones.
-The m36 regular trousers are in the same color that the tunic, blueish grey.
-Supply of trousers was even more problematic than for the tunics.
-Civilian wool trousers of appropried colors (grey, blue, steel, etc) were used a lot on the frontline (with m36 tunics?).

Questions:
-In a lot of reenactment pictures, I see greenish trousers with a m36 tunic. The trousers presently sold by Hikishop are greenish wool breeches. I can't manage to find what these trousers are. The color is so far from the tunics that it's obviously not m36 trousers. What is that?
-I know that the brown civil guard uniform was sometimes used on the frontline (correct me if i'm wrong). Were the brown trousers of the civil guard sometimes used with m36 tunics?

Thank you guys!
Pies
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Re: Trousers question

Post by Pies »

Hi,
-Originally the straight trousers were for officers and the breeches for the soldiers, but then (when?), soldiers were allowed to wear straight ones.
I don't know where you have heard this... If anything, breeches were more common among officers.
-The m36 regular trousers are in the same color that the tunic, blueish grey.
True, though Finnish wool wasn't usually that bueish, the Chinese grey-blue is very close to some examples i have seen.
-Supply of trousers was even more problematic than for the tunics.
-Civilian wool trousers of appropried colors (grey, blue, steel, etc) were used a lot on the frontline (with m36 tunics?).
Interesting, I hadn't heard of any particular supply problems regarding trousers before. Civilian gear is only really common for Winter War, and even then it was mostly either all civilian or all military, though pictures of soldiers wearing for example M36 caps and civilian clothes can be found. Even then, majority of men were wearing military uniforms. Then again, Finns did use a fair amount of civilian stuff here and there due to various shortages, so civilian trousers are not completely out of the question even in continuation war, as is referenced in Linna's book. Shortages of everything were very much the norm in wartime Finland.
-In a lot of reenactment pictures, I see greenish trousers with a m36 tunic. The trousers presently sold by Hikishop are greenish wool breeches. I can't manage to find what these trousers are. The color is so far from the tunics that it's obviously not m36 trousers. What is that?
It is somewhat common to see reenactors wearing German trousers. However, the breeches sold by Hikishop definitely at least try to emulate M/36 trousers. I don't know if the picture screws it up somehow or if they're a newer batch, but our trousers are definitely of the same colour as the tunics.
-I know that the brown civil guard uniform was sometimes used on the frontline (correct me if i'm wrong). Were the brown trousers of the civil guard sometimes used with m36 tunics?
It was worn commonly during Winter war, but not really at all during Continuation war. As you usually had either your own uniform or an army issued uniform, using the parts together wasn't common. Generally, mixing different uniforms was discouraged, though using M22 breeches with M36 uniform was authorised.
A finnish veteran I spoke to said it was to make urinating off horseback easier. I don't know if that's true or whether he was pulling my leg
The real reason was to prevent draft entering through the fly. Cavalry trousers were also made as a straight version, while early ones had leather patches for reinforcement.

Hope this was helpful :)
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Kyrl
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Re: Trousers question

Post by Kyrl »

Pies wrote:I don't know where you have heard this... If anything, breeches were more common among officers.
You're right, i'm probably mistaken... After a check one of my books specifies that breeches and straight trousers were worn by all ranks.
In Asepuku m/36 the typical winter war officer has straight trousers and the typical soldier breeches, maybe i had that in mind.
Interesting, I hadn't heard of any particular supply problems regarding trousers before. Civilian gear is only really common for Winter War, and even then it was mostly either all civilian or all military, though pictures of soldiers wearing for example M36 caps and civilian clothes can be found. Even then, majority of men were wearing military uniforms. Then again, Finns did use a fair amount of civilian stuff here and there due to various shortages, so civilian trousers are not completely out of the question even in continuation war, as is referenced in Linna's book. Shortages of everything were very much the norm in wartime Finland.
For the civilian trousers, well in fact I had in mind what Pirkka said above:
"However, reading through 'The Unknown Soldier' again, I was struck by this quote, written of the men getting ready for war in August 1941:'No pressed trousers here. Legs were encased, some in brown British gaiters, some in civilian trousers, some in gray army issue.The only articles all wore in common were a cap, a summer blouse and a belt'.
This ties in with a story told by another veteran, that from 1943 onwards, supply of uniform items was so bad that his unit were allowed to substitute grey civilian trousers (usually the bottom half of an old suit) for army issue while in the front lines, and keep the issue ones for going on leave or parades. This leaves the interesting situation that the army wore civilian clothes for fighting and military ones for visiting the civilian world.


I agree that it seems more likely that the majority of the men either got the complete uniform or no uniform at all... But apparently in this example the men all had the army summer tunic but not the trousers, and this regulation of 1943 seems proof that civilian trousers were worn a lot with military tunic. I supposed this kind of configuration would be correct for winter and wanted a confirmation.
It is somewhat common to see reenactors wearing German trousers. However, the breeches sold by Hikishop definitely at least try to emulate M/36 trousers. I don't know if the picture screws it up somehow or if they're a newer batch, but our trousers are definitely of the same colour as the tunics.
I had in mind this kind of serious impression, i don't think it's german trousers, what do you think?
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As it seemed consistent with what Hiki sells, i thought i had missed a kind of trousers in my research:
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Maybe it's just the picture indeed, I don't know...
It was worn commonly during Winter war, but not really at all during Continuation war. As you usually had either your own uniform or an army issued uniform, using the parts together wasn't common. Generally, mixing different uniforms was discouraged, though using M22 breeches with M36 uniform was authorised.
Ok so it's better to forget a mix of m27 and m36 elements.
Hope this was helpful :)
Yes thanks!!

I'm sure other specialists on the forum like Repper, Bauer and André could add elements too! Guys? :)
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Peter Bauer
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Re: Trousers question

Post by Peter Bauer »

Unfortunately I don't know as much about finnish uniforms as Pies or Andre so I will just let them write about the issue! :)

One thing I would like to point out though is the difference between units. Conscript units (like the one in Tuntematon Sotilas) were clothed better than reservist units, especially the ones that were called to service in late war. I personally have read very little about the clothing issue of continuation war, I've always lived under the impression that uniforms were readily availeble, except in the beginning of the continuation war when there wasn't enough summer tunics to go around... but I guess Andre could drop by to tell us more about this?
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Heinz O. Kaufmann
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Re: Trousers question

Post by Heinz O. Kaufmann »

I had in mind this kind of serious impression, i don't think it's german trousers, what do you think?
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He is wearing repro german M40/M43 trousers in the picture, at the time those pictures were taken, we did not have a supply for trousers yet.
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Kyrl
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Re: Trousers question

Post by Kyrl »

Peter Bauer wrote:One thing I would like to point out though is the difference between units.
Yes I think it's an important point. :)
He is wearing repro german M40/M43 trousers in the picture, at the time those pictures were taken, we did not have a supply for trousers yet.
Thanks for the info, I think it settle this particular question, you were right Pies: no greenish trousers!
Kyrl
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Re: Trousers question

Post by Kyrl »

About the straight trousers only allowed for officers, I found this in Asepuku m/36: "The uniform m22 had both straight trousers and breeches, but only officers were allowed to use straight trousers, NCOs and enlisted men used breeches".
So it was in fact for the m22, not the m36! :)

Which leads me to this, on the same page: "Due to the material shortage m22 trousers were allowed instead of m36 ones".
So it wad really a question of shortage. If we add this, the 1941 testominy, and the 1943 regulation, it really seems to me that supply was more critical for trousers...
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