Issued small arms?

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André
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by André »

Here is a list of Finnish Army's small arms from autumn 1939 (just before Winter War).

- 250 028 rifles
- 19 252 pistols
- 4 963 SMG's
- 4 872 LMG's
- 2 479 MG's
- 150 000 handgranade
- 156 000 000 rifle ammunition

Civil guard had:
- over 114 000 rifles
- 1 500 SMGs
- 700 LMGs
- 550 MGs
.... 88 000 weapons were given to Army.

Finnish bought weapons during the Winter War especially from these countries: Sweden, Belgium, France, United Kingdom, Italia, Switzerland and Hungary.
Because most of these countries were preparing to war in Middle-Europe, the weapong deals were very tricky.

Most common weapons bought were:
-Swedish 6,5mm Mauser rifles M/96 (52 000 pcs.)
-Swedish 6,5mm Mauser rifles M/21 (25 000 pcs.)
-French 8mm Chauchat -LMGs M/15 (5 000 pcs.) (these were free gifts)



Finnish army got a lot of pillage weapons though from Soviets. Here is a list:
- 33 637 rifles (mostly Mosin-Nagants)
- 3 012 automatic rifles (SVT-38)
- 88 sniper rifles
- 398 pistols or revolvers
- 239 SMGs
- 3 079 LMGs
- 1 768 MGs
- 20 Anti-aircraft MGs
- 149 mortars (82mm and 50mm)
- 149 anti-tank guns
- 160 cannons

Here is a list about number of weapons included in Finnish and Soviet infantry division (in optimal):

Finnish infantry division:
- 14 200 men
- 11 000 rifles
- 250 SMGs
- 250 LMGs
- 116 MGs
- 0 riflegrenade equipment
- 18 mortars
- 18 anti-tank guns


Soviet infantry division
- 17 500 men
- 14 000 rifles
- 0 SMGs
- 419 LMGs
- 200 MGs
- 261 riflegrenade equipment
- 40 mortars
- 48 anti-tank guns
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Enigma
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Enigma »

It should be mentioned that a lot of unstandardized captured equipment the Germans did not want to keep in their arsenals.

What about the Swedish Suomis used by the SS. Were they from Finnish stocks or bought directly from Sweden??

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Peter Bauer
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Peter Bauer »

From what I've understood, they were guns produced in Sweden under license.

They are somewhat different, so if you have original photos, we could do some comparisons.

Swedish M37 by Husqvarna
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M/31 Suomi
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Enigma
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Enigma »

True indeed. Suomi's were made in Sweden under a licensee agreement with Finland. At least some of these ended up in the hands of the German army in Finland. I just wonder how? At this moment I have no clear explanation. As Finland was an ally of Germany she was supplied with sub standard equipment that the Germans did not need at the moment themselvelves. Like the boxed and new Curtis fighter planes captured in Norway in 1940.

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Peter Bauer
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Peter Bauer »

Finland atleast officially sold some number of m31 to the german army and some 200 to hitlers personal guard, it is unfortunately unclear how many of the guns were delivered and where they were used.
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Enigma
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Enigma »

Excelent. That explains a mystery that has been bothering me. I KNOW that at least some "Swedish" Suomi's ended up in the hands of the Norwegians detached to SS in northern Finland. Now It seems clear that Finland suplied these to Germany.

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Peter Bauer
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Peter Bauer »

ill try to find some info on the numbers when i get home from work later today.
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Heinz O. Kaufmann
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Heinz O. Kaufmann »

And if I remember correctly, Nord also used Suomi machine pistols while in Lapland. But in limited numbers, offcourse.

Franz, you may know it better?
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Peter Bauer
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Peter Bauer »

Here's a quite long quote about the export-use of M/31 I found.
Exports of Suomi M/31 submachineguns during World War 2:

During Interim Peace and Continuation War Tikkakoski also exported Suomi submachineguns abroad. Many of largest deals were made to insure getting vital machinery or raw materials in exchange. Export permits given in that time included:

Export Permits during Interim Peace and Continuation War.


14th of August 1940 220 to Sweden
14th of August 1940 5000 to Bulgaria, almost certainly no actual deal
31st of October 1940 50 to Sweden
16th of January 1941 26 to Denmark
18th of December 1941 5 to Bulgaria
20th of January 1942 40 to Sweden
12th of March 1942 1742 to Germany
20th of April 1942 10 to Sweden
26th of June 1942 1100 to Germany
26th of June 1942 500 to Bulgaria, probably no actual deal
26th of June 1942 100 to Sweden
22nd of October 1942 500 to Croatia
26th of November 1942 100 to Switzerland
29th of April 1943 7 to Denmark
20th of May 1943 5000 to Switzerland, all not delivered?
1st of July 1943 750 to Croatia, almost certainly no actual deal made
5th of August 1943 200 to Germany*

Total
15350

* Ordered by Privatkanzlei des Führers, Hitlers private chancellery. The weapons of this deal probably went to Waffen-SS.
(Source of this chart: Sotilaskäsiaseet Suomessa 1918 - 1988, part 2, page 267.)

In addition Romania wanted to buy 5,000 Suomi M/31 submachineguns in year 1942, but the deal didn't happen as orders of Finnish military were a priority. For the same reason many of the planned export deals listed above could not be filled. In addition July of 1942 Finland donated 120 new Suomi M/31 submachineguns to German AOK Norwegen located in Finnish Lapland. Large number of the submachineguns sold to Germany seems to have ended up to SS and Waffen-SS, as they were typically issued more mixed weaponry than Wehrmacht (German Army). Both 50-round box magazines and 70-round drum magazines seems to have been exported with the weapons.

License production and Finnish made Suomi M/31 submachineguns in other countries:

Swedish versions:
# M/37: Version manufactured by Husqvarna factory under license. Chambered to same 9 mm x 20 Browning Long cartridge as Swedish Army standard sidearms FN M/03 and Husqvarna M/07 of that time. 56-round box magazine was used with this weapon. Only small number manufactured before Swedes decided to favour 9 m x 19 cartridge.
# M/37-39: Version manufactured by Husqvarna under license. Chambered to 9 mm x 19 Parabellum/Luger cartridge. Replacing earlier M/37 in production it was manufactured from 1939 to mid 1940's. The Swedes also exported this version to Norway, Denmark, Indonesia and Egypt. When compared to Finnish Suomi M/31 the Husqvarna M/37-39 has very different kind of stock with low-gradient pistol grip-part of the weapons stock, shorter (23.1-cm) barrel, shorter barrel jacket and simplified sights. Length of the whole weapon was 77 cm and it weight some 3.9 kg (empty and 4.9-kg with fully loaded magazine). The Swedes used these with the same 50-round box magazine that also the Finns manufactured during World War 2.
# M/37-39F: Original Suomi M/31 submachinegun manufactured by Tikkakoski imported from Finland. All of these were similar to early version of Suomi M/31 used by Finnish military, in other words: they didn't have the muzzle brake. Swedish military used these first with 50-round and later also with 36-round box magazines (similar to the ones used in Finland and in case of 36-round magazine also in Swedish Carl Gustav M/45 submachinegun).

Danish versions:
# M/41: Small number of Finnish Suomi M/31 submachineguns had been exported to Denmark already before World War 2. During WW2 Madsen and Hovea started manufacturing their copy of Suomi submachinegun called M/41. The Danish production went (at least originally) to Danish Army, which the Germans did not disband and disarm until October of 1943. By that time at least 1,400 submachineguns M/41 had been manufactured. After disarming of Danish Army the weapons seem to have went to German use and they may have issued some to their local collaborators. The main differences of original Finnish M/31 and its Danish made copy are in neck area of the weapons stock and in its front sight (M/41 had protective blades in sides of the front sight).

Swiss versions:
# Mp.43: November of 1942 the Swiss signed contract purchasing 5,000 Mp.43 submachineguns, as they called Suomi M/31, made by Tikkakoski and imported to Switzerland from Finland. It seems that The Swiss didn't get quite all of these, because quite naturally deliveries to Finnish military were priority for Tikkakoski. All of these were similar to early model of Suomi M/31 used by Finnish military, in other words - the version without the muzzle brake.
# Mp.43-44: However the contract signed in November 1942 included also a manufacturing license, which the Swiss put to good use. Hispano-Suiza factory utilised it by manufacturing estimated 22,500 submachineguns Mp.43-44 (as this version is known in Switzerland). When compared to Mp.43 the Swiss Mp.43-44 had a simplified rear sight, which had L-shaped head. This L-shaped head in rear sight could be switched to two positions - one set for 100 meters and another for 200 meters. The barrel length of M/43-44 was about the same as in Finnish M/41 and also other dimensions of this version seem very similar to non muzzle brake equipped version of Finnish M/31.

Soviet versions:
# KF-42: During Continuation War a small number Suomi submachinegun M/31 copies in 7.62 mm x 25 calibre were manufactured in Leningrad. The Soviets called this unlicensed copy KF-42 (Karelo-Finskij 42).

Unlike some sources have claimed Finland never acquired any of the license-made Suomi submachinegun versions and none of them saw any use with Finnish military. Only possible exception to this rule might be (likely very small number) of Husqvarna M/37-39 Swedish volunteer unit (SFK) might have brought among its weaponry to Finland during Winter War. As SFK left its weaponry to Finnish military after that war few M/37-39 might have seen Finnish use during Continuation War. At least some of the weapons delivered to Croatia (and possibly Bulgaria) seem to have ended to German hands during the war.
Source is http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MACHINEPISTOLS1.htm
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Franz repper
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Franz repper »

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Here is a Photo of some from SS Nord if you look hard you will see that some have Suomi Kps and they are the Finnish made type
They guy on the left from of the Photo has the 50 round box (long magazine)
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Enigma
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Enigma »

Hmmm. You do indeed have what seems to be quite a complete list of export
orders. But these are all orders fulfilled during WW2. I know that some Suomi's
were delivered to the Norwegian police before WW2 and that some were used
in 1940 against the Germans.

But did the Swedes export these to Finland??? How did a Swedish Suomi end
up in the hands of Nord.

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Jugend Repper
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Jugend Repper »

um im sorry to say but Nord used "FINNISH" suomi's not swedish as every photo you see any german with a suomi its a finnish one and you can tell that by the barrel.

May i ask do you have a photo of nord useing a swedish M37.
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wenn ich recht hab, wollen sie mich schelten. Goethe
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Enigma
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Enigma »

In a book published a few years ago a Norwegian in Nord states that he had a Husquarna manufactured Suomi. Unfortunately I have no photo of this. It has puzzled me ever since and to this day I have not found a satisfactory explanation on how it ended up there. I see no reason why he should not be telling the truth. (If my memory is correct it is from a book concerning the battle at Kaprolat/Hasselmann.) Did Sweden export Suomi's to Finland??
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Heinz O. Kaufmann
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Heinz O. Kaufmann »

# M/37-39: Version manufactured by Husqvarna under license. Chambered to 9 mm x 19 Parabellum/Luger cartridge. Replacing earlier M/37 in production it was manufactured from 1939 to mid 1940's. The Swedes also exported this version to Norway, Denmark, Indonesia and Egypt.
Could be far fetched but could they have used captured Norwegen or Danish Husqvarnas in Finland?
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Enigma
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Re: Issued small arms?

Post by Enigma »

The Swedish Suomi’s in “Norwegian use” came with the units formed in Sweden at a later stage of the war. They were issued with Swedish arms and were under “Swedish command”. They returned to Norway and brought their Swedish equipment. This is definitely not the source for Nord’s Swedish Suomi.
Swedish export to Norway?? When?? I have heard some rumors that some were used by our police prior to WW2. But these were most likely of Finnish manufacture. I am quite sure our police had some.
It might be that the Suomi in the hands of Nord originates from stocks left by the Swedes. Or the Swedes might have sold it to the Germans early in the war. I guess this will be one of the small puzzling mysteries I will have to live with.….

Regarding the Danish Suomi’s they were made by DISA (Dansk Industri Syndikat that later became Madsen) and HV (Hærens Våbenarsenal – The Army’s weapon arsenal). These ended up in German hands and were used by them. I once had the pleasure to inspect a HV manufactured one. It was a late one with Waa markings. Needless to say it is one of the more desirable historical oddities I would like to get my claws on 8)


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