German paint and its pigment components (spectrophotometer)?

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Tommygunn
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Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:39 pm
Location: Italy

German paint and its pigment components (spectrophotometer)?

Post by Tommygunn »

Has anyone taken some good solid WW2 German paint samples and had them matched on a Spectrophotometer so that you now have the nitty gritty data of what pigments each paint is made from. For example, if we take Dunkelgelb the paperwork might say 50% yellow, 25% brown and 25% white or similar - hopefully something a bit more technical about the proportions.

So, if possible, can someone supply me with this info taken from genuine samples of Red Oxide, Dunkelgrau and Dunkelgelb?

Lastly, and I suppose the question I should have asked from the start, can I then take this info into the local paint shop where they could punch in the numbers and I would get the exact same colours?

Thanks,
Tom
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Pug42
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Re: German paint and its pigment components (spectrophotomet

Post by Pug42 »

Already been done by others:

http://stores.ebay.de/historypaint?_rdc=1

Some of the RAL colours (6006, 7021 for example) are still in the current RAL listing and you can ask for them by name at an automotive paint mixer, or even a DIY store (if you are painting wooden items)

7028 is the difficult one as not currently available, plus of course there are two versions of the wartime spec, 1943 and 1944. The 43 version is more yellow, and the 44 version is more beige. The ebay trader above sells both versions, colour matched to samples.

Hope that helps!
David

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pepperpot
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Re: German paint and its pigment components (spectrophotomet

Post by pepperpot »

BUT!!! there are always local differences due to pigmentation variants and as the war progressed the variations became greater. Some of the modern RAL numbers are definitely a different shade.
graham
Mikkel
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Re: German paint and its pigment components (spectrophotomet

Post by Mikkel »

Pug42. Is the paint from that shop of a good sturdy quality? I've had bad experience in the past, with low quality paint, hence my reason for asking :)
pepperpot
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Re: German paint and its pigment components (spectrophotomet

Post by pepperpot »

what are you painting???
Das Heer have their own paint made in the UK. contact gasmask on this forum
graham
peterwulfhund
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Re: German paint and its pigment components (spectrophotomet

Post by peterwulfhund »

The stuff on German ebay looks impressive ,but, it's mad expensive........ inc postage , as I understand it, you'd get a measly 0.7 of a litre for about 30 quid !!!.... I'd expect a gallon tin for that price :D !
They have nice vehicles in their example pics tho...
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Pug42
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Re: German paint and its pigment components (spectrophotomet

Post by Pug42 »

The choice is yours really - the colour matched examples above are more expensive as they (as Pepperpot says) slightly different to the modern RAL equivalents. RAL 6006 (Feldgrau) is available from an automotive paint supplier (in matt solvent based cellulose) or B&Q (acrylic eggshell for wood etc) in its modern incarnation which is pretty close to to the original wartime shade. I've used it a lot and nobody has ever said anything about the colour. My local car shop charges me just under £12 for a 400ml spraycan, which seems to go quite a long way as it is very good quality...

The current RAL 7021 seems identical to correct wartime shade (Schwarzgrau), and given that the camo colours (RAL6003 Olivgrun, and RAL 8012 Rotbrun) varied widely in field usage due to the method of dilution from the concentrated paste supplied (water, clean solvent, dirty solvent e.g. used engine oil) then you are well within acceptable limits. If anything, most people doing camo on vehicles do colours much too dark and intense as wartime pics show greater dilution, plus in the case of water based application, quite rapid fading!

Factory applied schemes like the "ambush" or Skoda works examples are different, much darker and more intense, but field applied camo is a wide gamut of artistic styles and colours! Study lots of wartime pics would be my advice, particularly the original colour pics that exist.
David

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Tommygunn
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Location: Italy

Re: German paint and its pigment components (spectrophotomet

Post by Tommygunn »

Problem is, is that my tripod is in Italy and I'm currently in the UK so I don't have access to get a paint match. Ideally I wanted to get a match here in the UK and take the paint back with me but that probably isn't going to happen this time round so I'm just fishing for accurate colours.
What I do know is that the Red Oxide is much redder and shinier than the usual, similar to Carmine Red Rall 3002 instead of the more matt and browner stuff you might see otherwise.

I asked the missus to take a photo of some of the grey paint in the most natural light possible. What would you say it was closest to; Ral 7021, 6006 or other?

Tom.

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Tommy
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Re: German paint and its pigment components (spectrophotomet

Post by Tommy »

Looks like 7021 on my screen, that's the correct colour for a Lafette up until 1943 when they changed to 7028. I don't believe they were painted any other colour from the factories.
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Pug42
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Re: German paint and its pigment components (spectrophotomet

Post by Pug42 »

According to Folke Myrvang's MG34-42 reference work (Collector Grade Publications, well recommended), Early war Lafettes were painted RAL 7021 Dunkelgrau (MG34 and early MG42 examples), until transitioning during 1943 to the standard RAL7028 Dunkelgelb factory finish. (Prewar have the 3-tone Reichswehr camo). RAL6006 examples undoubtedly do exist but are presumably field repaints?

Check out this website for info and pictures:

http://www.bergflak.com/lafette/paint.html

Almost impossible to judge colour photos on a PC screen unless both photo and viewing screen have been colour calibrated - too many hue and tint variations otherwise. Yours does appear to be RAL6006 Feldgrau, but it could be the Dunkelgrau/Schwartzgrau 7021 with a slightly greenish cast to the picture! I offloaded your pic and applied a white correction to the background tint in Photoshop and it made the box appear more green than grey. Is the box contemporary to the lafette?

You appear to have the Norwegian olive green overpaint so I'm guessing an MG34 lafette? The bolt boxes are often a later fitment as they didn't necessarily leave the factory with them during early production runs.

You are right about the primer - red lead oxide is quite a bright red rather than a rusty shade. Hard to replicate now as red lead is banned on safety grounds!

I would try and remove the Norwegian overpaint first and see how much original colour you have underneath - it would also add value to your lafette! Overpainting should be a last resort (unless I have it all wrong and you have a postwar Yugo MG42/53 lafette, in which case strip it and repaint!!)
David

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