SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

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Halle
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SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by Halle »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... eaths.html

Was he really an accessory to 300,000 deaths ?
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funker50
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by funker50 »

I wonder how many 'natives' of the former eastern block countries were arrested over the treatment of its jewish and 'other group' population.
The Hungarians, Poles etc weren't exactly friendly to the Jewish people, and neither were the russians after the war (going by what stories family members have told me) but I've never really heard of any being arrested or put on trial, does anyone know of an example?
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Halle
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by Halle »

Demjamjuk ( did I spell that right ? ) springs to mind , pretty sure he was from Ukraine or the Baltic states .

The point is , this guy was sorting personal possessions of people destined for the gas chambers - pretty macabre and heartless I agree , but If you were to take it to the logical conclusion , pretty much every one who ever had anything to do with the death camps , however tenuous , should have been put on trial . As the article states , hardly any one ( 46 ) has been convicted . Personally , I think he's been had up because he's a former member of the SS , and the politicians can still see personal gain in hounding him .
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kiler
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by kiler »

funker50 wrote:The Hungarians, Poles etc weren't exactly friendly to the Jewish people
Interesting statement, do you judge it on the grounds of Poles being largest group of Righteous Among the Nations ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Rig ... he_Nations ) or people like Irena Sendler ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irena_Sendler ), "Polish Wallenberg" Henryk Sławik ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henryk_S%C5%82awik ) or Ulma family ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef ... toria_Ulma )? I can list you many many others if you wish, unless you prefer to acquire knowledge by watching "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter".


funker50 wrote:I wonder how many 'natives' of the former eastern block countries were arrested over the treatment of its jewish and 'other group' population.
As far as Poland is concerned, I don`t exactly know what you mean by "other group" as Poles were killed in concentration camps alongside Jews, Gipsies and Soviet prisoners of war (you even have it in quoted article). Actually, it were Poles, not Jews who were the first prisoners of Ger... upss, Nazi concentration camps on Polish territory.
I wrote it once in other topic but I will repeat it as many times as it is necessary: minor group of "szmalcownicy" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szmalcownik ) was consistently chased and sentenced to death by the Special Courts of the Polish Underground for crimes against Polish citizens (Jews were also Polish citizens with full personal and voting rights). That is why there weren`t many trials after the war in Poland - most of "szmalcownicy" didn`t live long enough to see the end of the war.
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funker50
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by funker50 »

oy vey!

Alright then 'alot of the NON jewish Hungarians,non jewish Poles etc weren't exactly friendly to the Jewish people' of said countries, 'judging' by the fact that my uncle was told that by his parents and aunt (who somehow survived the camps) who were from those countries, were Jewish and lost most of their relatives in the war. Good enough?
I've seen 'Generation war' (crap name but my keyboard won't allow the double dots) and thought it was quite good,not just for showing different aspects of certain countries peoples attitudes (for which it got critizism for in the Polish media I hear, according to wiki :wink: )
As apposed to googleing and getting the answer I'd prefer to ask you the question (and hopefully you wont get your hackles up?), why do you think the German court cases seem to get/give more publicity (49 to 700 in Polands favour) over 'final solution' cases than those of other countries (Poland, Hungary, etc),at least in our press anyways?
Is it a case of the German state trying to rid itself of guilt in the eyes of the west still or our media obsessed with German cases? I may have heard of a case in Poland or Hungary but it always seems to be the German cases that do the rounds in our media (that or I should have gone to spec-savers ;-) )
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redsun
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by redsun »

kiler wrote:
funker50 wrote:The Hungarians, Poles etc weren't exactly friendly to the Jewish people
Interesting statement, do you judge it on the grounds of Poles being largest group of Righteous Among the Nations ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Rig ... he_Nations ) or people like Irena Sendler ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irena_Sendler ), "Polish Wallenberg" Henryk Sławik ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henryk_S%C5%82awik ) or Ulma family ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef ... toria_Ulma )? I can list you many many others if you wish, unless you prefer to acquire knowledge by watching "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter".


funker50 wrote:I wonder how many 'natives' of the former eastern block countries were arrested over the treatment of its jewish and 'other group' population.
As far as Poland is concerned, I don`t exactly know what you mean by "other group" as Poles were killed in concentration camps alongside Jews, Gipsies and Soviet prisoners of war (you even have it in quoted article). Actually, it were Poles, not Jews who were the first prisoners of Ger... upss, Nazi concentration camps on Polish territory.
I wrote it once in other topic but I will repeat it as many times as it is necessary: minor group of "szmalcownicy" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szmalcownik ) was consistently chased and sentenced to death by the Special Courts of the Polish Underground for crimes against Polish citizens (Jews were also Polish citizens with full personal and voting rights). That is why there weren`t many trials after the war in Poland - most of "szmalcownicy" didn`t live long enough to see the end of the war.

I think he is referring to the fact that the German could never have killed so many without massive collaboration from locals.
kiler
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by kiler »

funker50 wrote: Alright then 'alot of the NON jewish Hungarians, non jewish Poles etc weren't exactly friendly to the Jewish people' of said countries, 'judging' by the fact that my uncle was told that by his parents and aunt (who somehow survived the camps) who were from those countries, were Jewish and lost most of their relatives in the war. Good enough?
I don`t know your relatives and cannot discuss with their feelings towards Poles. Yad-Vashem Institute has numerous accounts of survivors from Holocaust talking about Poles helping them. If you don`t believe them I won`t be able to convince you and I won`t try. I just gave you some facts and sources. Do what you want with them.


funker50 wrote: Is it a case of the German state trying to rid itself of guilt in the eyes of the west still or our media obsessed with German cases? I may have heard of a case in Poland or Hungary but it always seems to be the German cases that do the rounds in our media (that or I should have gone to spec-savers ;-) )
funker50 wrote: As apposed to googleing and getting the answer I'd prefer to ask you the question (and hopefully you wont get your hackles up?), why do you think the German court cases seem to get/give more publicity (49 to 700 in Polands favour) over 'final solution' cases than those of other countries (Poland, Hungary, etc),at least in our press anyways?
Three things:
1) I don`t have to google those things as I`m interested in this subject and often attend meetings with survivors and eyewitnesses of Holocaust in Schindler`s Factory Museum ( http://www.mhk.pl/branches/oskar-schindlers-factory ) and in Eagle Pharmacy ( http://www.mhk.pl/branches/eagle-pharmacy ) in Cracow. I use Wiki here so that I could give you sources in English as it is English-language forum. If you prefer scans of books in Polish or clips with memoirs of witnesses and survivors in Polish please let me know.

2) Haven`t you notice one thing concerning this German court cases: why this people weren`t taken to court 50 years ago? Now they are 90 and can`t even be put to jail. Some of them could live their lives without any trouble just like Reinefarth, although it was known what they were doing during the war. Media coverage now is the least that could be done to restore the memory of their Victims.

3) I don`t know the Hungary case cause they had their Arrow Cross Party that I believe had something to do with oppressing the Jews (maybe any Hungarian member will write something about it), but do you know any official Polish organisation or state officials responsible for persecution of Jews that should be the subject of a court case? Didn`t it cross your mind that there weren`t any Polish camp guards, officials, statesman or soldiers doing that and if there were individuals responsible for blackmailing and denunciation of Jews, they were killed during the war or convicted and sentenced to death soon after it ended and not 70 years later after many years of peaceful lives?



redsun wrote: I think he is referring to the fact that the German could never have killed so many without massive collaboration from locals.
Why couldn`t they? Who could stop them? Poland was occupied, had no regular army and there were a few hundred thousand WH Soldiers, Polizei, SS and Auxiliary Ukrainian and other Eastern units on Polish territory. Moreover, most of Jews didn`t resist Germans believing that this fellow countryman of Goethe won`t kill them and allowed to be locked in ghettos, making it easier for Germans to conduct "the final solution". Some even joined Jewish police and helped Germans do it. I really don`t know what other "help from locals" did Germans need to do it?

You also need to remember that helping Jews was under death penalty for the one helping and his whole family and concentration camps were full of Poles that were potential threat to 1000-years German Reich. Moreover, when in 1943 Polish authorities in exile asked Roosevelt to help Jews in Poland he was more interested in the fate of Polish horses (true story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Karski ).
Halle
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by Halle »

Hmmm , gone slightly off topic :?
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by Crazy Feldgendarme »

I agree please keep to a direct topic, I will be watching this carefully at the slightest hint of it getting out of hand it will be locked
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by BedsnHerts »

I am all in favour of people being called to account whatever their age, but your do have to wonder why this wasn't done in the 70 years between now and the crime.
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by Adibach62 »

they should look at the Allied war crimes while there at it...Russians did a lot to the German people,mostly women and children..Allies shot unarmed POW's out of hand..but then again,its the victor's that make the rules.
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askhati
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by askhati »

And the irony is, 50 years from now, people will be persecuting the Israelis for their genocide against the Palestinians. Round and round, the wheels of hatred go, spinning perpetually and going nowhere. What is the point?

Look at South Africa, my own country. During the Anglo-Boer War, the British rounded up the Afrikaner women and children, and put them in concentration camps to die. No reparations were paid by the aggressors (never to the degree that Germany has been milked), and no British subjects were ever punished for it. The Afrikaner nation was reduced to a fraction of its previous size, and Imperial rule was assured.

We got over it.

I can also trace back family lineages to men who fell in battle, and women who died in camps.
I can also speak to people who were close to the survivors of those camps.
I can also keep picking and picking and picking at a festering wound.

What is the point?
What does it achieve?
Who does it help?
How does it change anything?

And - in perhaps the highest irony of it all, especially where religion is concerned - what is the point of searching for earthly vengeance when your god has promised you justice in the hereafter? Do you doubt his power - or are you a false servant?
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kiler
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by kiler »

Talking about Auschwitz and trials: the 92 year old former prisoner of German death camp in Auschwitz sues German TV station:

http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/1421 ... -German-TV

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a3e_1422 ... comments=1

Today court gathered for the first time. I hope Mr Tendera will make it to the trial`s end and will be granted justice.
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askhati
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by askhati »

kiler wrote:Talking about Auschwitz and trials: the 92 year old former prisoner of German death camp in Auschwitz sues German TV station:

http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/1421 ... -German-TV

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a3e_1422 ... comments=1

Today court gathered for the first time. I hope Mr Tendera will make it to the trial`s end and will be granted justice.
What next - we start murdering people who draw cartoons of the camps? This is ridiculous.
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kiler
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Re: SS Auschwitz trial to go ahead

Post by kiler »

askhati wrote: What next - we start murdering people who draw cartoons of the camps? This is ridiculous.
I sincerely don`t know how to comment that, so please let me just leave it without a comment.
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