RAISING THE U-778

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johankreig
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Re: RAISING THE U-778

Post by johankreig »

I second that, this is a social forum, can we please not let politcs, past or present interupt our fun, thanks.
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Crazy Feldgendarme
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Re: RAISING THE U-778

Post by Crazy Feldgendarme »

Watching this closely if it degenerates into a bun fight its locked and a months ban for ALL participants
May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the crotch of the person who screws up your day and may their arms be too short to scratch.

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Irland-redaktion
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Re: RAISING THE U-778

Post by Irland-redaktion »

kiler wrote:I have nothing against raising and restoring this U-boat, but let us not call it a monument of anything. It can be an exhibit but not a monument for Gods sake.

Off topic:
The reality is the Nazis took a leaf straight from the book of British global colonial terrorism because the British were masters of it, and It’s also a fact that Hitler and the Nazis never intended to go to war with Britain in the first place because they admired their cultured heritage and their long colonial history.
Why do you write "British" if you use word "Nazis"? Be consistent and either write "British" and "German" or "Nazis" and Conservative nad Labour Party members.

In response to your first sentence I agree with you in regards to the u-boat not being seen as a monument in any shape or form because it was essentially a tool designed to kill and items designed to kill do not make good meaningful monuments, to Nazi worshiping nut cases out there it might sound like a good idea but to right thinking people it should only be seen as an artefact of war and as a reminder of the past.


I also believe you’ve misunderstood the points that I was making and it would be wrong for me or anyone to give credit to, Or place the blame on (depending on your persuasion) any British political party for the formation of the British Empire. Unlike the Nazis who obviously were a political party and who were solely responsible for making the decisions and then following through with strong attempts to colonise eastern & western Europe from 1938-45 the same cannot be said for any modern British political party, and I’ve used the word “British” in my previous posts in the context of a broad church of all things/people that originated in Britain.
While Britain cannot claim responsibility for the origins of European colonialism it did out-run and out- do in terms of the amount of land which they colonised everyone else in the world including the Spanish, Dutch & the French who were also hard at work trying to colonise various other parts of the globe in the 1500 & 1600s.
At its peak the British Empire amounted to ¼ quarter of the earths surface and it was English royal monarchs who first made colonialism official policy beginning namely in the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1 in the latter half of the sixtieth century. By the time the Conservative, Labour and Liberal parties were formed the British Empire had already existed to a greater extent for centuries and it was only when Oliver Cromwell and his parliamentarian roundheads defeated Charles 1 and his royalist cavalier army during the English civil war that gave the British parliament and politicians greater sway in law making rather than having policy dictated to them by any king or queen. Having the power changing hands from monarchs to politicians in Britain didn’t diminish whatever empire already existed or elevate the suffering of foreign natives and in some cases foreign natives were much worse off as was in the case of the Irish when following the beheading of Charles 1, Cromwell set himself and his New Model Army on an unmerciful murderous crusade throughout Ireland.

To put all this in shorter terms, I don’t believe the German people of 1938-45 would have showed acts of aggression and colonialism to other European countries or went to war if there hadn’t been a Nazi party to coheres them along, hence the reason for using the world “Nazis” because they are the individuals responsible not the German people, in regards to Britain and the British people it made no difference who held the reigns of power either monarchs or politicians either way colonialism was to be welcomed for hundreds of years and still is.
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kiler
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Re: RAISING THE U-778

Post by kiler »

Crazy Feldgendarme wrote:Watching this closely if it degenerates into a bun fight its locked and a months ban for ALL participants
I really don`t see a problem when two people discuss their opinions about the interpretation of history, without swearing or personal attacks. I always thought that this is what tolerance and dialogue are about. However, as a guest here I have to accept your rules. To finish I`d just like explain my point of view to Irland-redaktion.
Irland-redaktion wrote:I also believe you’ve misunderstood the points that I was making and it would be wrong for me or anyone to give credit to, Or place the blame on (depending on your persuasion) any British political party for the formation of the British Empire. Unlike the Nazis who obviously were a political party and who were solely responsible for making the decisions and then following through with strong attempts to colonise eastern & western Europe from 1938-45 the same cannot be said for any modern British political party, and I’ve used the word “British” in my previous posts in the context of a broad church of all things/people that originated in Britain.
While Britain cannot claim responsibility for the origins of European colonialism it did out-run and out- do in terms of the amount of land which they colonised everyone else in the world including the Spanish, Dutch & the French who were also hard at work trying to colonise various other parts of the globe in the 1500 & 1600s.
At its peak the British Empire amounted to ¼ quarter of the earths surface and it was English royal monarchs who first made colonialism official policy beginning namely in the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1 in the latter half of the sixtieth century. By the time the Conservative, Labour and Liberal parties were formed the British Empire had already existed to a greater extent for centuries and it was only when Oliver Cromwell and his parliamentarian roundheads defeated Charles 1 and his royalist cavalier army during the English civil war that gave the British parliament and politicians greater sway in law making rather than having policy dictated to them by any king or queen. Having the power changing hands from monarchs to politicians in Britain didn’t diminish whatever empire already existed or elevate the suffering of foreign natives and in some cases foreign natives were much worse off as was in the case of the Irish when following the beheading of Charles 1, Cromwell set himself and his New Model Army on an unmerciful murderous crusade throughout Ireland.

To put all this in shorter terms, I don’t believe the German people of 1938-45 would have showed acts of aggression and colonialism to other European countries or went to war if there hadn’t been a Nazi party to coheres them along, hence the reason for using the world “Nazis” because they are the individuals responsible not the German people, in regards to Britain and the British people it made no difference who held the reigns of power either monarchs or politicians either way colonialism was to be welcomed for hundreds of years and still is.
Let me explain it to you from my point of view: I always react when I hear that "Nazis did something". That's because I`ve noticed that Western Europeans have problems with calling "German" something bad from World War 2, but on the other hand a term "Polish concentration camp in Auschwitz" is often used without such hesitation, even though Auschwitz camp has as much common with Poland as Guantanamo with Cuba - do you call it Cuban camp/prison?

As for the responsibility of whole German nation in WWII: you can`t forget that Hitler was chosen in democratic elections in 1932 gaining 33% of votes ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_ele ... ember_1932 ). 11,737,021 people voted for him. Nazi party had only about 2 million members at that time, so if only Nazis (I understand this term as Nazi party members) had voted for Hitler, he would not become chancellor. In 1933 elections it was 17,277,180 - 44% percent of voters. You can`t blame Russians for Stalin or Iraqis for Saddam, but in my opinion you can blame Germans for Hitler.

Don`t get me wrong - I reeanact in German uniform, I have no problems with modern Germans or people reenacting German army from WWII. I really like this forum and discussions with other Members about uniforms, weapons and units. However, it is painful for me, when in my opinion history is falsed. I don`t know, maybe its because of my family`s and nation`s war experience of camps, executions and slave labour. Please try to understand my feelings and forgive me if it irritates you too much.
Irland-redaktion
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Re: RAISING THE U-778

Post by Irland-redaktion »

Let me make it clear that I am in no way trying to lesson the blame of what the common German people did during WW2 nor am I trying to justify their actions.

I think the word Nazis is often used by a lot of people in shorthand terms because they were at the top of the German political pyramid when these events were taking place and I understand in what you’re saying in that you would like to see more people broaden the blame to Germans rather than just plain Nazi party members or their supporters which is a valid point. While it would have been impossible for the Nazi party to carry out their acts of brutality without the help of the common German people it’s fair to say that a lot of ethnic Germans of that period were misguided in their beliefs and manipulated by a corrupt and devious political party and in a lot of cases good righteous thinking people were put under duress to carry out these acts of brutality and went along with the events that were taking place around them. In simpler terms lets say that shit runs down hill and at the top of the pile sat the Nazi party or “Nazis” who dictated their policies to the SS, SD, Gestapo, Police, Wehrmacht who in turn enforced what was dictated to them onto the average German nobodies in the street and it was official policy that if anyone spoke out in condemnation you were most likely shipped off to a concentration camp for undesirable German subjects. If you look around the world today similar events are taking place in north Korea were there’s a false sense of solidarity for their countries leader and the reality is very different than what is being portrayed on television screens in that most of those crying hysterical flag waving Koreans are in fact acting out of fear for themselves and their families and these are the very people who will when pushed to the shove go to war and commit terrible acts under duress.

Another thing that I would like to say is that I’ve always acknowledge the fact that the Polish people suffered greatly during WW2 at the hands of the Nazis/Germans & Communist/Russians and that I have a lot of admiration for the resistance they showed to both invaders.
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Halle
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Re: RAISING THE U-778

Post by Halle »

I think it was your views on the British Empire that were the cause of most concern .
Jäger Stefan Halle 3./I./Geb.Jag.Reg.100
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