Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

U-boot, German Navy, Italian navy.

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Shergar
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Shergar »

james , mario and finlay .............when is the book coming out on your areas of expertise in these fields as certainly the km section is for me the most interesting section to read and i have received pms james from other users praising your contribution to the forum . the photos are also quite unique and i have saved a lot of them , just want to say thanks for sharing this information as it is actually factual and interesting and throws new light on a little known part of the german war effort with its indepth research on a spectrum of subjects that you are all knowledgeable about . my thanks to the three of you . also james ill give you a ring later .
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

M as far as optical gear goes the book has been written - the most comprehensive book being by written Dr Hans Seeger .
I have some correspondence with Hans - he is a decent gent who is always happy to exchange info and give advice.
He has put together a data base on Zeiss binoculars and most who collect forward model and serial numbers to him as a matter of course.

As with all books on such a wide and varied subject thed last word has not been written and the "Grey Book" has been been updated and will no doubt be so again , I have been fortunate to find one set which Hans was unaware of - a very limited build 7x50 naval binocular by a Canadian firm "BOP".

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In terms of what I poosted on optical items most gained from experience of owning , handing and admiring other peoples gear , and exchanging info on a world wide basis - "that which is not shared is lost".
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

Saw this one on eBay today.
A mint "Slim Commander" - it will cost someone an arm and a leg.

http://cgi.ebay.com/German-Kriegsmarine ... 286.c0.m14

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It is a set like this which the Skipper in "Das Boot" can be seen with most times.
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

The american answer to sunlight - a clip on filter system - not strictly German but an intersting view on how the Americans dealt with a similar problem.

The filter allows an incresingly dark filtering of the light to take place , ranges from clear down to dark green.
Hayward was the american submarine binocular - not sure if they employed a similar syatem .
This set was bought in extremely poor condition and was completley overhauled by a US based firm - they made a good job of it.
( For a mere $140 you can buy and restore a decent piece of history for less than a good set of modern 7x50's will set you back. This set cost $40 , including the filter.).

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The German internal filter system seemed to be reserved for deck mounted types , highly engineered and successful.
Their hand held sets although of ewxcellent quality do seem to have lagged behind in terms of dealing with difficult light conditions , a short coming in terms of design and practical application.
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

Whuilst looking through a newly purchased copy of "Donitz's last gamble" by Lawrence Patterson I came across this photo which I have reporduced here shows the prototype XXI undergoing testing - around the officers neck a set of leitz , the barrel shape ,the rubber bumpers and bending bar mark it being a set of leitz almost 100% sure of this.
For me this is a first , first time I have seen a set of this type on a U-Boat.

The plot thickens slightly in that the leather benutzer / rain guard , why is it required ??
I will have to approach the author for a copy of the photo or a HR scan - this is an interesting photo.

Image
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

Two photos .
First shows Kapt.lt Hasenschar , the photo is from the very excellent "U-Boot im Focus" No. 4 (current issue ) , an outstandingly good publication. ( See Book and Media section).

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The second comes from Jak Showell's "The German Navy in World War Two" and shows crew men from his father's boat U-377.

Hasaenschar and the man standing top left both have around their necks the 7x50 Zeiss gas ocular , the ocular lens had a rubber eye piece which made for extremely long and comfortable eye relief , the oculars are 20mm wide - providing a pinsharp and better than average defination.
Even by todays standards this is an outstandling good set of binoculars which ranks as one of the best 7x50 sets made for the Kriegsmarine.
Occasionally they appear in photos , and would seem to have been used in some numbers , I have also seen them turn up in photos taken on S/Boats.

The U-Boot Captain - the end of the rubber eye cups can just be seen , most likely the cups are the orange/ red coloured type - the rim of the seating can also be seen - a dead give away as to the type , in the second photo the long rubber eyecups can be seen.

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Above an almost mint set of blc 7x50's. a great set to use on a sunny day , they just produce the most fantastic images.

Check out the MG-34's adpated for naval use , the range of life vests , the range of ages ,some of the crew look like mere youngsters.

The man top right - a very rare 1st model U-Bootglas , the eyecups flip open , there were no rubber top covers or bumpers on the objective lens.
This set is not often seen today - a real rarity.
Last edited by Tychsen on Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tschechenigel
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tschechenigel »

Hi James,

The picture posted by you on september 29th is indeed quite interesting. Quite interesting indeed. I fully agree this is a "normal" beh 7x (rubber armour at the objectives), yet it seems to have a special feature that I have never seen before. Take a close look at the right prism housing; it seems to have the same rubber cover as the Zeiss uboot 7x sets had, and of which none have survived the war. The left hand prism housing seems to have none left. This might explain the presence of the leather ocular cap. Should this assumption be correct, you've rediscovered something entirely forgotten and unknown. And, it sounds logical :-)

René.
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

Tschechenigel , the same point did cross my mind - the "Zeiss" type rubber jacket for the prism housing .
Leitz did produce a set which had the drying cell on the roof of the prism housing which was combined with the older type ocular tower .
I thought it may be that this set is of that type , but the desicator cells do not seem to be there in this photo.
Although the body / objective tubes and rubber bumpers are definately of the later war design.
( In the model I am thinking of ( as per Hans Seeger's book the cells are appear on a set which is early war in design apart from the dring cells on the roof of the prism housing.

The photo does pose some questions , unfortunately the defination is pushed somewhat a clearer photo would have made all the difference, in terms of the features of the set it is an interesting photo which does not produce a clear cut answer.

The rubber jacket itself , is it a " cut down" or " purpose made example ?
( Again the photo is unclear).
When looking at the copy under a glass - there does appear to be a jacket on the left side , the edge of it and two of the ribs are visible, the set may indeed be some form of interm model between the early "Tuna can" and the late war set.
The set doews not appar to have the rubber "armour" seem along the lower edge of the prism housing as per the later war leitz.

Rene - to have made the observation , I take it you have an interest in binoculars or U-boat gear ? :)
( Most folks would miss the point you picked up on ).
An interesting photo for several different reasons.
1. The general features of the set- ocular arrangement , body design.
I can't see it being a late war set minus its top caps - the uncomfortable nature of the oculars as they would have presented ( and as frequently seen today) why would the captain tolerate such a set - ther was never a shortage of binoculars ?
2. The rubber jacket.
Tschechenigel
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tschechenigel »

Dear Tychsen,

I fully agree. This insn't a "regular" so-called uboot beh 7x50, to me it seems very alike a normal KM 7x50. Nothing special about it, except, very important, the rubber armour and the presence of the Benutzerkappe. I've measured and compared my blc and beh 7x50's today, and I believe you'll agree, no way a single mould would fit both. The blc 7x type's armour doesn't allow (because of it's conical form) to have it placed on a Leitz either, so, in my humble opinion, beh 7x50 must have had their own rubber armour, late war that is. Or , then again, it might be one of many strange unknown Zeisses... ;-)

Keep well, and especially keep on the good work; you've written some very knowledgable articles on this site, love to read them!

Best regards,

Tschechenigel.
Ps: How on earth did you figure out I'm into optics or Km related material? ;-)
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

Allo ...."Rene"!!!
Difficult to know about the set - the objectives on the later war type are different from the early Tuna can - shape and finish - the late war model much more tapered- as they appear to be in the photo.

The set does look a bit odd to me - there does not appear to be the expected top caps with molded eyecup - the shape of the body would lead you to expect them , yet on the other hand it does not appear to be Zeiss , ( the hinge to me looks to be very much "leitz").

The benutzer , makes you winder what is under it - if only the guy in the photos would show us. :(

As far as leitz "U-Bootglas / U-Boat binoculars goes , is there such a thing ?
I would question it - as you say - they were used by all sections.

The jacket - if it was made specifically for this set no one has picked up on it yet and it has to be assumed that few photos of the jacket exist and if so no one in collecting circles has twigged on to it.
(The lack of physical evidence ?)

Do you think the "Hans S" :) might know or "TDO" :shock: ?

Leads to another question just what was the structure and composition of the classical Zeiss "jacket".
To get it on to the set it would have had to be quite flexible - again the absolute lack of a physical example leaves you looking at what photographic evidence which remains and drawing conclusions from that.

Rene - are you still a big fan of Jim Morrison and "the doors" :wink: :D
Talk to you soon Rene .

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-f7V3NQ2q ... re=related

Please see above clip from U-tube , a very nice example of a quality Zeiss case used to carry Herr Flicks "most powerful binoculars"

PS Rene I will email the photo to you at the cafe - if you can distract yourself from "Meme la bonk".
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkz1ecxrQO4

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3rKmJauL7 ... re=related
Definately a Zeiss jacket ! :shock:
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

Going back to the Zeiss UBootglas - the cast body , rubber gaskets to seal the prism housings these being in turn protected by rubber top caps ,the ocular construction again being such that the focusing mechanism is contained within the structure - no moving part being exposed to the elements.
What resulted as an absolutely waterproof binocular - the leitz porro II was similar but it lacked the higher defination of Zeiss and preformance wise there is no real comparision.

The British Ross "Tropical" sets do come close - the sealed tops are watertight , but the ocular stand is of the traditional type - optically a high preformace set.

The "tropical" set as used by the Royal Navy and the Sanish navy but it is not a "submarine" binocular.
West-Front

Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by West-Front »

Tychsen wrote: Image

The second comes from Jak Showell's "The German Navy in World War Two" and shows crew men from his father's boat U-377.
As an aside what a great photo JS, I'm always seeking out the photos that portray the personal experience of the U-Boat war. Their stances, facial expressions etc.
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

The youthful look of the man on the left compared with the older hands above him - it marks out the mixing of youth and experience to make a crew.
The naval spec. MG-34's are note worthy as they date the photograph in terms of the interim period to the AA armament being increased latter part of 41-42.
The mix of binoculars as commented on earlir confirm this - the early model of UBootglas on the extreme right also dates the photograph.
It tells a lot about life on a submarine .........
West-Front

Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by West-Front »

Is that a twin MG34 mount do you think ? I've seen single mountings before on U-Boats.

The bloke second from the left back row has the thousand yard stare thats for sure...
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

Cam that does look like a twin mount mount , the older hands do have that "been there look".
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