True effectiveness of SS units?

[Franz repper]

Peiper wrote

You mention the way he smashed up his Division, this is what im talking about,
these men rolled on regardless, this is the mindset with which im refferring to,
in the same vein as "Panzer" Meyer, Klingenberg, Wittmann and various others i
could name, they all came from the same mould, they may have been Nazi's but
damn fine soldiers for all that.

what utter pants the only thing I would agree with is they were (are still ) dam fine men ,You may of read the books but did you understand them ?
These are the real men who died to put the medels on the likes of Peiper that is part of the making of an elite force

Corps Headquarters
XXXXVI Panzer Corps
ORDER OF THE DAY
10.8.41
After heavy defensive fighting on the north-east front of Yelnia,
Foersters group of the 1st SS Motorcycle Battalion which had the assignment of protecting the left flank of the company,was discoverd as follows:
The group leader, SS Unterscharfuehrer Foerster with his hand on the release cord of his last grenade,had received a shot in the head.
SolierNo 1 SS Rottenfuehrer Klaiber,his MG still at his shoulder and a shell in the process of being fired,had received a shot in the head
Soldier No 2 SS Sturmann Buschner Soldier No3 SS Sturmann Schyma ,dead in fox holes with rifles in the firing position.
The dispatch rider SS sturmann Oldeboerhuis was dead on his knees by his motorcycle,with his hand on the handlebars ,Killed in the moment as he sought to deliver the last dispatch .
The driver,SS Sturmann Schwenk was dead in his foxhole
Of the enemy ,there were only dead men to be seen who lay in a semicircle around the groups position,a hand grenades throwing distance away
An example of what Defence means
We stand in respect and awe before such heroism
I have applied for these to be published in the Roll of Honour of the German Army
General Officer Commanding
Von Vietinghoff-Scheel
General of the Panzer Troops

[Ruimteaapje]

I hear what you are saying, even though i think you have under estimated
Peiper's career,

Hello "Peiper",
In what way do I underestimate Peiper's career other than providing facts instead of the usual myths?

I think you will find that the real Peiper earn't his decorations, try reading
"Jochen-Peiper" by Charles Whiting or "The Devils Adjutant" by Micheal Reynolds,
Peiper may be many things but not a man who would wear decorations which
he was not entitled.

I think I've just shown you the facts that show that he did recieve awards and promotions despite being a very bad tank leader. He was replaced by Kuhlmann and send back to Germany because he had destroyed the entire Panzer-Regiment within a matter of weeks.

You mention the way he smashed up his Division, this is what im talking about,
these men rolled on regardless, this is the mindset with which im refferring to, in the same vein as "Panzer" Meyer, Klingenberg, Wittmann and various others i could name, they all came from the same mould, they may have been Nazi's but damn fine soldiers for all that.

What on earth is "damn fine soldiering" about destroying your regiment like that? Do you have any idea how many fine tank commanders lost their lives in those senseless head first attacks?

There are numerous events which i could mention where Peiper pulled the Wehrmacht chestnuts out of the fire but there are too many, the events you are refferring to i
would imagine needed a headstrong leader to do the job, it is well known Peiper was
always ahead of his main columns, the same as in the Ardennes, sometimes he would be
miles infront of the main group and be "behind enemy lines", that was his style, sometimes
it paid off, sometimes it didn't!.

Again I wonder why the virtues you mention would be considered good points.

The end of the day which ever way you want to look at it, in my opinion the Waffen SS, like them or not were: A BREED APART!

No doubt but not in the way you mean.

Regards,
Ruimteaapje

[Peiper]

Ruimteaapje, Ruimteaapje

Sadly it seems you are looking for an argument (as you have on other threads),
so basically iam going to end the discussion there as you obviously do not wish
to hear or read any other views except your own!

Good luck with your future research, "Peiper".

[stefan]

I think Ruimteaapje has a bit of a downer on Waffen SS units and Commanders
and that's his prerogative ,but the status of Elite units is attained buy more than one person and more than one action
read the history of the British army to see that some amazing victories and some amazing cock-up's too
but who would argue with the 350 odd years history of the Brigade of Guards

yes its true they were forbidden to lock their personal lockers to encourage trust with each other and yes the relationship betwwen
officers and men was more relaxed than the Heer to encourage a closer bond

yes its also true that some of the foreign units were just a waste of uniforms and equipment and some were not

its fair to say the seven panzer divisions had a good record in combat

but at the end of the day what separates the elite from the run of the mill

MIND SET AND SELF BELIEF this with training will give you the edge as has been mentioned the SS used the same training and kit
as the Heer ,what made them different was belief in the cause and self belief in themselves and their comrades

the same thing that made FJ units elite and Grossdeutschland etc

[Ruimteaapje]

Sadly it seems you are looking for an argument (as you have on other threads),
so basically iam going to end the discussion there as you obviously do not wish to hear or read any other views except your own!

Unfortunately you've got me all wrong there. I am simply trying to correct some popular myths with factual information. What could be wrong with that?

I think Ruimteaapje has a bit of a downer on Waffen SS units and Commanders

Certainly not. Over the past decade I have been (and still am) in contact with many officers, nco's and other veterans of the Leibstandarte, as well as with several officers from other SS units. Among them men who never talked to anybody else about their wartime experiences. Award winning soldiers who shared with me everything they could remember. No downer there but exactly because of that I am very aware of the facts behind the myths.

[Hoffman Grink]

I think what you will find folks is that Ruimteaapje is a very well read and experienced researcher who, far from having a downer on anything within the Third Reich's fighting forces, has an objective and well informed opinion on many things. Where the majority of us "read a bit", "study a bit" and "talk a lot" about "stuff" - Ruimteaapje has spent more or less a lifetime accumulating a large library and collection...... and his writings, far from looking for an argument, seek to redress many imbalances and quash myths etc.

Were I you, I would engage Kamerad Ruimteaapje and find out more of what he has to say - Not all of his writings will be 100% but I suspect many will be of benefit to "serious historians" wishing to learn more - And as KK has already found out - he can supply much if asked correctly.

I think after reading this thread - the true effectiveness of Waffen SS units came AFTER the War - When their methods, tactics, equipment, ethos and doctrine was analysed and formulated into many aspects of modern military operations and training....... Much of which is seen on the battlefields of the world today.

Edit: I was typing this as Ruimteaapje added his answer above......... Never judge a book instantly by its cover folks....

[ssparatrooper]

"elite" is a word that comes from training and then battles won at the front, this status is then upheld through tradition and training/selection and used when re deployed on operations in wars.

Para regt for instance from ww2 to the falklands to Afghan have held this status along with many other surviving formations from armies all over the world, this promotes a can do attitude of these units backed up with "skills" passed down fron nco to recruit to continue the tradition.

as i have said before it takes all sorts to make a battalion and instead of "splitting hairs" about this or that remember you are portraying and idea of what you think they were like, everything we know about these ww2 formations is second hand (at best) the rest is from youre interpritation of what you find.

there are people that reenact the time when i was in 3 para i look at them and i can see from 100 meters away they are not real, i am pretty sure that is what we look like to ww2 veterans.

i know people that have been awarded medals they dont deserve and i know plenty more that that do deserve them but dont have any, commanders are awarded medals for their blokes and that is the way it is in the real world.

i would not however comment on a award won by someone when i wasnt there because again your information is second hand at best and you will find what you want.

[stefan]

Ruimteaapje wrote

The Nazi’s wanted the Waffen-SS to be an elite, they failed to build them into an elite

Elite? – Was the Waffen-SS an elite? NO. Did the Waffen-SS have elite units? YES. The Waffen-SS contained too many second and third rate units. The Waffen-SS did have some elite divisions.

I agree that the entire waffen SS was not elite but those that have the record of good fighting spirit and achieved victories were
or why else would they have formed the older divisions into panzer divisions ,this would be a waste of precious resources to second rate units
or are you saying the Germans deliberately did this so as to lose the war,no I would say they gave them to units that would make best use of them and that includes Heer units

nobody is saying that Handschar were the best division in WW2, when people speak of the Waffen SS as an elite they are really
only talking about the premier units and a few other select foreign units

I have never met any of these,,, SS "groupies",,,as you say who insist that everybody with an SS pay book was elite
only people who have met have read the books and understand the difference

[Ruimteaapje]

Stefan, I think I already made myself perfectly clear about what I mean. No, I do not mean that turning the older SS divisions into panzer divisions was a waste of precious resources. I do state that this conversion to panzer divisions was based on political motivations and not a rational need for SS panzer units. Simply because the Heer already had excellent panzer divisions and some equally outstanding motorized infantry divisions which no doubt met all the requirements for a successful conversion to panzer divisions. For that matter there was no military necessity for the creation of the Waffen-SS as a whole or Waffen-SS panzer divisions in particular. The same recruits would not have performed less if they had been in regular Heeres units.

nobody is saying that Handschar were the best division in WW2, when people speak of the Waffen SS as an elite they are really only talking about the premier units and a few other select foreign units.

In that case we should also talk about the premier units of the Heer when talking about "the Wehrmacht", right?

Regards,
Ruimteaapje (Timo)

"Hoffman Grink", thank you for the kind words!

[stefan]

Ok I didn't know it was just a political decision to make the already motorized SS regiments into Panzer divisions I thought it was just

the next logical step in a ever difficult war that the German High Command found themselves in ,to supply tanks and improve the effectiveness

of already proven troops



seeing as they were very reluctant as you already know to supply the SS units with any kit at all (funny that as we think of the SS as having Hitlers ear and in a dictatorship you would think just a phone call would change that ),as they jealously guarded their

own position to bare arms within the German state,even to the point that Goering scuppered the fledgling SS paras insisting it should all come under

the Luftwaffe's control



I think you do miss the main differences between the SS ethos and Heer ethos ,as you know the Waffen SS was founded by Paul Hauser and

Felix Steiner at the request of Himmler ,as both soldiers had fought in the first world war and seen the mistakes made there they wanted a more

dynamic type of soldier for the modern battle field ,this is why their approach to things was different to that of the Heer ,like the locking of personal

lockers ,training with live amo ,use of camouflage clothing (something all armies today practice),a more relaxed attitude between officers and other ranks,

only promoting the officers from the ranks after they have proven themselves,to be fully moterized units

unhindered by the traditions of the Heer and mind set of traditional armies (the reluctance to adopt cammo clothing a case in point)they had a clean

sheet to work with ,and I think although short lived they have left their mark on modern military thinking

[Ruimteaapje]

I think you do miss the main differences between the SS ethos and Heer ethos ,as you know the Waffen SS was founded by Paul Hauser and Felix Steiner at the request of Himmler ,as both soldiers had fought in the first world war and seen the mistakes made there they wanted a more dynamic type of soldier for the modern battle field ,this is why their approach to things was different to that of the Heer ,like the locking of personal lockers ,training with live amo ,use of camouflage clothing (something all armies today practice),a more relaxed attitude between officers and other ranks, only promoting the officers from the ranks after they have proven themselves,to be fully moterized units unhindered by the traditions of the Heer and mind set of traditional armies (the reluctance to adopt cammo clothing a case in point)they had a clean sheet to work with ,and I think although short lived they have left their mark on modern military thinking

My God, even die live ammo myth pops up again. Aren't you SS fanboys ever tired of parroting the same old bs about the Waffen-SS again and again? THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SS AND THE WEHRMACHT: BOTH USED LIVE FIRE TRAINING. IT WASN'T INVENTED BY THE SS, IT WASN'T EXCLUSIVE FOR THE SS AND IT WASN'T DIFFERENT OR MORE INTENSE IN THE SS. PLEASE CUT THE CRAP ABOUT HOW SUPERIOR SS TRAINING AND TACTICS WERE BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT. The Waffen-SS indeed tried very hard to be different and better but to no avail. 1939 and 1940 taught them the hard way that different does not mean better. The performance of the Waffen-SS was terrible in Poland, Holland, Belgium and France (military that it. Politically they showed what they were capable of with various massacres and other warcrimes). That's why they switched to Heeres doctrines after the western campaign: because their own doctrines simply did not work. SHOW ME ONE DIENSTVORSCHRIFT THAT READS "SS ONLY"

But as promised, I'm out of here before I upset both the SS fanboys and those who are sick and tired of SS dicussions. Bye!

[Mikkel]

Please do not leave the forum. I find it extremely refreshing that someone is willing to present historical facts and proper research, and dispell the die hard reenactor myths.
This discussion is in fact not just about the 'effectiveness of ss units' but also about the complete misconception many people have about the so-called elite divisions.
Why is it perhaps that there are so many ss reenactment units, when one thinks about what the ss first and foremost stands for ?

[mario33]

Please do not leave the forum. I find it extremely refreshing that someone is willing to present historical facts and proper research, and dispell the die hard reenactor myths.

I'll second that. Stand fast, soldier !

coming back to the merits, my impression is:
- on the whole SS units were no better, no worse than Heer units mid to late war, except for second rate units;
- german and American propaganda overestimated importance of WSS units; AH that trusted WSS more after Army officers tried to kill him; Yanks played a good role here, reporting heavy fights with 'savage SS units' where every German soldier was a nazi SS-man;
- ppl tend to choose fancy plane-tree or whatever SS camo, CONTRARY to reality and historical facts.

[Hoffman Grink]

And I have already answered your PM Timo - No reason at all to leave.....

[stefan]

I am sorry you feel you cant continue the debate as all I am trying to establish is if all the books I have read that

emphasise the differences are actually wrong



as you didn't answer the other points I brought up I take it they are myth also or the same as Heer practises



you see the problem is there is so many authors who do emphasise a difference its hard to separate truth from lies

especially when you have people like Otto Carius in his own memoirs recording an account of visiting a Waffen SS command

post staffed by an officer transferred from the Heer ,he mentioned his surprise at how far forward the command post was

further than in Heer units and how the men addressed the commander in an informal manner using a nick name to the point Otto

commented to him about it ,and the officer said I know it wouldn't go down well in the Army but I wouldn't have it any other way

with these boys (I would say that was a differences)



also I have spoken to many British vets who fought against the SS and almost to a man when I asked what were they like

to fight they said BASTARDS ,on asking what they meant they all said they would never give up and were tough bastards

you new you were in for a hard time against them,one even said on briefings before the battle they would tell them the

enemies deposition they would face the next day and if SS came up it would put the jitters up them



I feel there were differences in fighting style with the premier units yes the over all doctrine was the same as the Heer after all they came under their command and needed to operate in cohesion with Heer units

but I think at unit and platoon level they had a different approach to fighting that made them an elite



if this is all propaganda started by the party then maybe Goebbles was more talented than we give him credit for



And I am no SS fan boy (in fact no fan of anything nazi I'm glad they lost) but I would like to know the truth

and you seem to say their is no difference between the LAH and some late war Volksgrenadier unit