"Schindler's list" Interesting real footage....

[Jonny]

I recently watched Schindlers List again, After watching It I looked into the Facts behind it, Hollywood did do a good job in trying to recreate a monster ( Amon Göth) but I was able with the help of the internet to find real footage and Pictures to compare to the movie. Not only I traced an interesting link to a production of one of Schindlers Jews whom later met with Göths Daughter recently.

The Hanging of Göth,Shown on the movie as a "smooth" hanging is very historicaly incorrect: (This movie was basied on the Book)

The Polish Hangman miscalculated the rope two times later It worked killing the "Monster" Himself.

Here is a link to what the movie showed...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkmInZzk ... re=related

I found original footage of this execution.
Here is the real hanging...(Found on a google search) (Link may be disturbing to some viewers)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=317_1218265064 [Mod edit - you'd be advised NOT to view this website at work, especially if your employer has any internet viewing policy]

Hear now is a link to Göths daughter meeting one of Schindlers Jews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGAJpE3LOhs

Here is a link to the famous Villa that was shown in the movie it still stands today... Maby as a reminder of the previous owner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Amon_ ... _house.jpg

I would stress that he got what was comming to him here is a copy of the Court Case, In English.

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/goeth.htm

Kindest regards

Jonny

[Irland-redaktion]

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[John Wilson]

The early prints of the book are in the fiction section of some libraries.

[Irland-redaktion]

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[West-Front]

The early prints of the book are in the fiction section of some libraries.

I've heard that, along with the works of another Aussie author, Gerald Toben.

[Irland-redaktion]

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[Hans Gowert]

i wouldnt advise opening this up at work ...ooops :0

[Tychsen]

West Front
I've heard that, along with the works of another Aussie author, Gerald Toben.

Is this the same chap who insists that the Holocaust never happened , same guy who runs "The Adelaide Institute" from his from room , now in an Australian jail for contempt of Court , using his rightful sentence as a cross upon which (like David Irving) he can nail himself as a self appointed marthyr for "freedom of speech".

The footage which JB has referred to has been used by so called "revisionist historians" to point out what they regard as being the "fiction" which is "Schindler's list" or as they refer to the film as - " Swindler's List".
I would agree that AG got what was coming to him , just as Toben has no grounds for complaint , he has been jailed for simple contempt of Court and his behavour since has been a self publicist pantomime performance just as David Irving preformed when he was jailed in Austria.

Also to be found on the internet the executions of Rudolf Hoess and Carl Hermann Frank, but of no interest to me all being quite worthless examples of humanity.

[Jonny]

With regards to the film again, Its based on a Book and not what I would watch to see what "realy happend" now not to get off topic but, In the movie the shootings from his Villa was also rubbish as I have read and seen pictures of the Camp in Question there was a hump or hill between his house and the Camp. Not High above the camp as shown in the movie...

Strange as we watched this Movie in School? What was the point in that? We would have been better watching a Documentry on the Holocaust...

Now lads not to get off topic....By the way I am not a Revisionist Historian for those that might think so!
Nor do I deny the Holocaust! but alot of Facts are still underwater... Moreover as regards to Germanys Laws on even to question it, and end up in Jail..One word that come to my head is...pathetic

But the meaning of the post was to show the Fact (which was the way in witch Amon was Hung) and the Hollywood way in witch is also provided. One can make there own minds on that...

Regards

Jonny

[Irland-redaktion]

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[West-Front]

Is this the same chap who insists that the Holocaust never happened , same guy who runs "The Adelaide Institute" from his from room , now in an Australian jail for contempt of Court , using his rightful sentence as a cross upon which (like David Irving) he can nail himself as a self appointed marthyr for "freedom of speech"

Yes thats him, charming piece of work.

[Tychsen]

JB .
If I might reply to some of your points.
1. I do not imply , nor has anyone else that you deny the Holocaust or that you are a revisionist historian.
2. Schindler's List is a movie , it is not meant to be an exact history.
If I might refer you to another movie by the same director which has had much praise heaped upon it , "Saving Private Ryan" - there are a great many historical and constructional errors in that movie some in the much acclaimed opening section - like "S.L." it is a movie and not a history and as you say a documentary is a documentary .
3. As far as German laws go it is not pathetic and for you to simply to dismiss the laws German feels she needs is to fail to understand the legacy which Adolf Hitler left Germany with when he put a bullet in his worthless head.
It begs the question what do you actually know about revisionist ideation , the claims repeatedly made and the series of legal cases in which alleged "experts" have become embroiled have shown how how utterly baseless their research and theories have been proven to be.
To objectively question something , there an evidence base which is reasonable and which reflects reality - revisionists do not possess this , they do not even come close so it is little wonder that Germany's legal system questions reacts as it does.
I do not find it pathetic - I find it quite understandable , I am only sorry that these so called "Experts" could not be put to the test in the full glare of TV / media and be exposed for exactly what they are - cranks.
Revisionists project the image that they alone have reviewed this aspect of 1933-1945 , this again is simply untrue , history is always under review and like rust it never sleeps.
Germany does not fear revisionist arguments but does fear the racial and political issues which are fellow travellers , I would again refer you to the period of 1933-45 and suggest strongly that you acquaint yourself with a fuller understanding of what took place and impact which has endure to this present day.

4. What facts (to be specific) do you think are still "underwater" ?
If you wish to address them to me I will endeavour to enlighten you.
The Holocaust is extremely well documented and whilst I grant you historians are presently working their way through a vast amount of additional documentation which has emerged from what was the former USSR that which has emerged from that quarter has certainly clarified what took place and who was involved.

5. I am quite familiar with on line revisionist material and have seen the points you raise in respect of "Schindler's List" and the labour camp a so called historian called Ball presented this as evidence that the movie existed only to make Germans feel guilty about the Holocaust - and surprise surprise he being an "expert" , is of the view that the genocide never took place to being with.
Amongst his other claims is that he is an expert on the interpretation of aerial photographs - he claimed that in his expert view that the induction ports on Krema units 2 and 3 at Birkenau did not exist and that the chimney was all wrong and that no bodies could be seen - Mr.Ball was proven to be no expert ( apart from a self appointed one) and NASA experts did indeed point out the induction posts ).

But the meaning of the post was to show the Fact (which was the way in witch Amon was Hung) and the Hollywood way in witch is also provided. One can make there own minds on that...

In terms of history it is a small point - I refer you again to "Saving Private Ryan" and your point that movies are not made to be documentaries. , all SS wanted to show was the bastard being hanged.
In other respects the movie showed more important aspects of Nazis decision making and behaviours extremely accurately - the chaos of a supposedly efficient organisation , the indifference to life and death , the corruption , theft and lining of their own pockets - something which AG was extremely devoted to and which got him into hot water on more than one occasion.
You make some good points JB which deserved to be answered.

[Jonny]

1.I was just setting the record before finger pointing happens , as you well know that is defamatory and leads to the Topic Locked! So no your right you never implied anything nor did anyone else!

2.I would if I was the Director of such a movie as Schindlers List and with a budget of $25000000, make it as historicaly correct as possible, due to the nature of the History it was basied on. Yes your right SVP was a much better film...

3.German Law, well my opinion is basied on many things that are working with many young Germans doing thier Civil Service in Northern Ireland. I lived in South Germany for a while, and this year meeting alot of Veterans. ( i have met to Holocuast Survivors) Moreover JS I am fully aware what affect the period 1933-45 had on the Germans!
I would agree with you when the likes of others "Experts" witch you have mentioned should be "debunked" so to speak in public rather than them locked up. As this would hurt them, rather than throwing them into Jail. What I find is that they are never contested in open, and the claims they make investigated. As would happen in any other case.

4. Thanks for the offer JS, but I can do without your enlightenment, as you have put it I will find out what I can, I even thought to do the Course on the Holocaust, here in Northern Ireland, then what ever questions I may have I can raise to the experts!

5. As far a Bell whom you have mentioned and the "other experts". I dont care simply what they have to say or argue. I was simply trying to see what realy did happen at Plaszow... Without the help of a Movie.
Now SVP is another movie, which has little in common to the one is question. Yes your right maby Steven Spielberg just wanted to show AG getting hung thats it.

I think thats all from me...

Kindest Regards

Jonny

[Tychsen]

JB
1.I was just setting the record before finger pointing happens , as you well know that is defamatory and leads to the Topic Locked! So no your right you never implied anything nor did anyone else!

No finger pointing , nothing defamatory , no slur on your character. I focused not on you but on the points you raised , I did believe that your post was placed to promote discussion not to stifle it.

2.I would if I was the Director of such a movie as Schindlers List and with a budget of $25000000, make it as historicaly correct as possible, due to the nature of the History it was basied on. Yes your right SVP was a much better film.

A matter of opinion , but you miss the point one which you make yourself - movies are not documentaries and SPR had a host of very basic errors in it , the whole time frame for a start was wrong as were the deployment of the troops much of which has been discussed here before.
(The huge bunkers on the beach the fortifications on the top , the unsecured rear entrance to the bunker which they "torched" , the direction which the beach defences were facing all spring to mind.)
At best movies motivate people to read more - I can never commend this too highly.
By and large you will find that SL was accurate in what took place , but it is not a history project nor was SPR.

JB
What I find is that they are never contested in open, and the claims they make investigated. As would happen in any other case.

The High Court Libel action which David Irving embarked upon to litigate against the publisher Penguin and the author a book called "Denying the Holocaust - The Growing Assult on Memory and the Truth" which was held in open court and which was widely reported in the media across the world.
I would also refer you to "The Unwritten Order" by Professor Richard Longerich ,"The Case for Auschwitz" by Professor Robert van Pelt and " Telling Lies About Hitler" by Professor Richard Evans - all of which recount the arguements and evidence heard as part of Irving's action - Van Pelt's is a work of some authority which destroys revisionist ideation on the Auschwitz - Birkenau complex , the gas chambers there being something of a fixation for them.
There have also been a number of legal actions fought in the US and Canada the most celebrated being that taken against Holocaust Denier Ernst Zundel part of which resulted in the utter discrediting of the Leuchter Report( commissioned by Zundel) which proported to support the claim that gassing never took place , Leuchter being a self appointed expert who actually had very limited expertise and no knowledge of the substance he was seraching for nor of the structures he was sent to examine.
Several cases have centred on the offer of " cash rewards" by various revisionist orgainasations if anyone can prove that anyone was gassed , prove that they had a relative gassed , or "if you can prove me wrong" ......... sums of up to $100,000 being offerred - they were challenged on several of these and refused to pay out - the people who proved them wrong sued and won.

Their various claims have been tested and have been utterly exposed for what they are , distortions , outright lies and pseudo science by pseudo experts , sloppy methodology , poor research standards and working backwards from a conclusion which had already been reached.t
To believe that they have not been tested or examined is simply not the case.
German law it has been alledged has been constructed to protect the "Holocaust" from being questioned - this claim is in itself an utter joke.

4. Thanks for the offer JS, but I can do without your enlightenment, as you have put it I will find out what I can, I even thought to do the Course on the Holocaust, here in Northern Ireland, then what ever questions I may have I can raise to the experts!

No problem JB but by all means do more than just think about it - do it.
As with all decent courses you will find that a great deal of time will have to be spent in background reading and cross referencing much of it may seem very divorced from what you may perceive to be the subject itself.
This is a huge area of subject which goes to the very core of the NSDAP , its related values , ideology and how the various departments and individuals ( including Hitler) functioned and interacted - I know that locally you will not find the information you require and you will have to invest some serious money in decent research material to make a go of it.
Which seat of learning runs the course you are interested in ?

5. As far a Bell whom you have mentioned and the "other experts". I dont care simply what they have to say or argue. I was simply trying to see what realy did happen at Plaszow...

His name was Ball and he said some of that which you have stated in your opening post , he used this as a basis to say that SL was based on lies - the Villa location and the labour camp.

Good luck with your intention to study the Holocaust in depth , it is something of a Pandora's box especially when you explore the Ez.gruppen and the level of co-operation which some levels of the Wehrmacht extended to their actions.
"Taping Hitler's Generals" is one you should consult ....see the book review section
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=7612
Best of luck
js

[Villy Vassel]

Why did Amon Goth not try to escape , he must have known the Allies were after him, in the confusion of post war Europe it should have been fairly easy to go to ground , why meekly surrender knowing you are going to hang??