uniform camo italian

Moderator: supermario

Stigroadie

Re: uniform camo italian

Post by Stigroadie »

supermario wrote:The camo repeats as Italian camo was printed off the roller. Most WW2 camoflages use this technique (Slpinter A and B for example). Not sure that SS camo was intially roller printed but i know that the black dye on plane tree camo was screen printed, giving a much more varied camo effect.

Neil
The early SS camo was screened and later ones roller printed if I remember correctly, though the 'over print' may well have been screened over the roller printed oak base. Thats a detail to check when I get home. Leibermuster used rollers of various diameters to add a more random nature to the finished cloth.
The 'repeat' on splinter A isnt that different to the Italian camo. For some reason, age perhaps, they always remind me of the wallpapers on Windows 3.11 which was often made up from 'tiles' that showed a regular repeat pattern.
supermario
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Re: uniform camo italian

Post by supermario »

Stig,

If you look at Splinter A and compared it with Modello 29, there is a slight similarity. Elements of Splinter A practically mimic Mod 29. Although Splinter A is very much more angular, and the colour is different, there is a common theme in the pattern. It even parrots the twig element i've described on the Italian pattern. When i get a chance, i'll post up pic's to show what i mean.

The research i've done is not exhaustive on WW2 Italian camo. What we wanted to achieve was to find out how we could spot a post war one from a WW2 one. There are lots of variations. The red brown colour isn't that common on WW2 shelters. It does occur, but when viewed/scrutinised closely, you'll see that this is how the dye has faded. Chocolate brown is a more defined WW2 Regio Esercito colouration. I've even seen a Mauve variant as well. What we have to remember is that WW2 Italian Telo's are upto 80 years old, and suffered from the sun, sand and abuse. Background colours also vary, Grey green being the most common.

However, my interest is in the Italian Army. I'm not an expert by anymeans, even less so on Tedeschy useage :wink: . What i want to do is show you guys what the pattern in WW2 actually looked like. Its smaller and crisper than post war. Post war telo's vary in colour too, but they tend to be horrible shades. If what i've put up helps guys sit down and look at what they're wearing, and how it compares to the original pattern and original darker colours, hopefully it will steer people to have a think about how they can portray SS troops from the HJ and LAH more accurately. We all want to look 100% accurate in order to give respect to the units we choose to represent. :D

Neil
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Stigroadie

Re: uniform camo italian

Post by Stigroadie »

supermario wrote:If you look at Splinter A and compared it with Modello 29, there is a slight similarity. Elements of Splinter A practically mimic Mod 29.... there is a common theme in the pattern.
Indeed, these are things you might expect to see. The production of both would be limited by available technology. Loom size and roller size being two very obvious limitations.
Whilst not certain it is reasonable to expect the earlier Italian camo to have inspired it's adoption and elements of design by the Germans?
Dont sell yourself short, what you have posted is the most detailed summary of the subject I have seen on any forum. I'm sure there is more to learn but your input is a valuable insight and a basic grounding for those who can use the info to better their representations. It has certainly helped me no end, though I can see it being costly as i search for wartime telo tenda. You understand I MUST have one now.
BERG
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Re: uniform camo italian

Post by BERG »

I just wanted to say that the 12SS and LAH were not the only ones to wear italian camo uniforms, the pattern was very popular with the police, heer and luftwaffe as well. I've even seen slovenian fascist troops in italian camo! :)
IMO, it's one of the "prettiest" patterns of the war!
supermario
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Re: uniform camo italian

Post by supermario »

Indeed, i've seen a picuture with a Fallschirmjager wearing a field made jacket/shirt of Italian camo. Just the one pic tho, not a thousand (Now holds breath to see how many FJR renactors will wear Italian camo now :lol: )

It seems that the only people not wearing it is the Italians!!!

However, units like the Decima Mas, and the Nembo seem to be the mass wearers of it, and even then its not that common. Perhaps i should post pic's of Italians wearing German camo? :D

My study of Italian camo targets the period from inception to 43. Stuff after that has a heavy teutonic lean to it. :D

I've seen other sites that address the subject as well, and most draw the same conclusion. WW2 issue is not the same colour or pattern from WW2. The pictures of my WW2 example don't show its true colours that well, as it is actually chocolate brown in colour. Thats poor lighting for you.

Neil
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BERG
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Re: uniform camo italian

Post by BERG »

I've actually seen a lot of photos of Polizei troops in Italian camo, mostly coveralls and field-made tunics, some units were even issued italian equipment like ammo pouches and rifles(post '43 I'm sure).

I'm mostly into RSI, and man did they wear camo uniforms, everything from caps to shorts! I'm not an expert on the REI, but the only camo items issued before '43 was the poncho, paratroopers smock and helmet cover, right?

Anyway, Italians wearing Italian camo;

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And, for a change, Italians wearing german camo; 8)

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supermario
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Re: uniform camo italian

Post by supermario »

Berg,

Spot on. Pre 43 the main issue of camo was the Telo and the paratroopers smock and helmet cover. Examples of camo M33 helmet covers seem to have been field made.

Post 43, there was a camo explosion for RSI units. However, select regiments got the cream of the camo issue. GNR units tended to utilise old REI equipment. The 29th SS div appear to have only been issued the Telo Tenda (Both camo and tan), as well as old M40 jackets, pantoloons and puttees (Some eventually got the 'gucci' M41 Paratroopers uniform). Italian camo uniforms were factory made, but there is a lot of diversity in their construction. There is some confusion still over the camo para smocks post 43. Pictures testify that the old smocks were still issued (The one in the post way above), but there are also pictures that show the colouration of the Telo Tenda also being used. Now the fabric for Telo's isn't great for uniforms, hence why its staggering to see so many German units wearing it, especially as they had a huge choice of camo to wear printed on appropriate material. Splinter A was printed on herringbone weave, if i remember correctly, and this is much better than the Duck material Zeltbahns are made of. You sweat like crazy in a material that doesn't 'breathe'. Now there is debate about whether the standard telo tenda colouration was ever used on cotton twill/herringbone fabric. As far as i'm aware no examples exist (If they ever did) but the debate rages on. :)

However, the smartest uniform that used camo material has got to be the Decima Mas. M41 jacket with camo trousers. Now thats putting the 'Fash' back into Fascism. :lol:

Neil
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BERG
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Re: uniform camo italian

Post by BERG »

supermario wrote: However, the smartest uniform that used camo material has got to be the Decima Mas. M41 jacket with camo trousers. Now thats putting the 'Fash' back into Fascism. :lol:

Neil
Indeed! :)

Here are some more interesting Italian camo photos;


A member of the Brigate Nere wearing what looks like a camo version of the M-41 tunic.
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Unknown unit, the caption says GNR but without any visible insignia it's hard to tell, they're wearing an assortment of different uniforms. It looks like the soldier in the Telo Tenda is armed with a flamethrower?
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Now here's a motley group of soldiers. It looks like he's wearing some sort of camo vest, or is it a jacket? Hard to tell IMO.
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Camo shorts, jacket and cap in wear
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OT: supermario; do you know where I can find a good Italian canteen and sling? Sartoria Equipe?
supermario
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Re: uniform camo italian

Post by supermario »

Berg,

The best place for Italian Canteens is Ebay. Look up Borraccia on Ebay.it.

The last pic you posted isn't a camo short/shirt combo, but a late war Para Smock. Italian smocks were step in, like the early German ones.

Anyway, here is another pic of another one of my original telo tenda's.

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Ok. Basically on the subject of colours, its all down to the brown. Looking at the brown on this picture, you'll notice its a 'matt' brown. Reddish tone ones are post war, and were never produced in WW2. The shelter i posted in the other pic's is early postwar. There is one common factor when trying to pic a wartime one from a post war one, and its down to the construction of the eyelet holes. Wartime ones have a bigger space in between the two small eyelets below the larger one than post war ones (As well as being constructed using thick cotton thread as opposed to metal grommets and eyelets)

Neil
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Wolfie
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Re: uniform camo italian

Post by Wolfie »

Supermario, a big thank you for clearing up the Iti camo debate once and for all!

This thread should be stickied.
"He was a fighter in every way, he lived and breathed action"

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supermario
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Re: uniform camo italian

Post by supermario »

Thanks for that Wolfie,

What i'll probably do is repost a new thread as a synopsis on Wartime versus post war and repro's, the do's, the don'ts and the wherefores. Hopefully, people like Caen44 will add their expertise to the thread. This weekend i'm at a show, where all the guys in my group are bringing their original telo tenda's. I'll take pictures of each one to show how they can vary, but will also post pictures of post war ones, so you can see the colour differences.

Why you lot like it so much, i'll never know. I still think Splinter 'B' is one of the better disruptive patterns made. You simply disappear in forests. Great pattern. Plane tree camo is still up there for me as well.

Italian Telo Tenda Mimetico Mod.1929 has one great purpose. It keeps the rain off my blanket. :D

Of course, we can maybe also discuss the paratroop colouration, and use of tenda material for late war Nembo uniforms, as well as the ultra rare and barely seen San Marco telo mimetico for helmet covers. Only two known period photgraphs show this pattern in use, and it isn't anything like regular Mod 1929.

Don't worry though, the Germans never used it. Its an Italian thing you see. :D

Neil
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Stigroadie

Re: uniform camo italian

Post by Stigroadie »

This is what forums CAN do so well. Discuss, disagree, debate, divulge. Opinions crumble before well supported evidence.
I have had my opinion changed by this thread and had my knowledge base expanded. If only all threads worked so well.
uscha meyer
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Re: uniform camo italian

Post by uscha meyer »

supermario- wonderful thread.

puts alot of queries to rest with examples. i've always thought that some pics in the petersen book were WAY off and post war or repro.

nice comparison with the patterns, showing sharpness and interesting comparison to some similarities in the splinter!

i have a set of SMW italientarn and one of chen's coming in the mail, i look forward to comparing them.

D
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Sean
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Re: uniform camo italian

Post by Sean »

D, if you could. Would you be able to post a side by side comparison?
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Jack
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Re: uniform camo italian

Post by Jack »

Looking at chens on his website hes copied smw, just like he tried to with the dot 44.
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