Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
Moderator: Jaws
Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
Prompted by the recent spate of GJ impressions springing up - and particularly continental ones I am minded to ask the above question.
So - Is it seen as less controversial to do Gerbirgsjäger as they were a very old, traditional force, predating the Austro Hungarian War etc.? Are they considered not as Nazified as other troops and therefore one can expect less "flak"?
I tend to see people choosing impressions for a number of reasons and quite often I feel that the background and indeed the classification of these units is either unknown or overlooked.
I'm not wanting to enter into a "He's more Nazi than Him" type debate - I just see people portraying Fallbones and Großdeutschland alongside 916 and 116 etc. then of course there is the "dreaded" Waffen-SS - Even the U Boat Society has a fantastic portrayal of some of the bravest men ever to grow a beard but they Grey Wolves were regarded not only as an elite but amongst the higher echelons of the Partie faithful.........
I'm curious as to primarily - if GJ is "easier" to portray in terms of publilc reaction and if it is seen as a romantic ideal or is it still tainted to the same degree as other arms of the Third Reich war machine?
Please feel free to discuss your own choice of portrayal and up front I will say -I have no problems with any frontline, fighting portrayal other than the "anti partisan" units which we all avoid......... Strange because an old man of my acquaintance was LW-FJ and he was involved in anit partisan operations in France - and he was "regular forces"......
So this is not a pop - it's an attempt to have a genuine question answered.
So - Is it seen as less controversial to do Gerbirgsjäger as they were a very old, traditional force, predating the Austro Hungarian War etc.? Are they considered not as Nazified as other troops and therefore one can expect less "flak"?
I tend to see people choosing impressions for a number of reasons and quite often I feel that the background and indeed the classification of these units is either unknown or overlooked.
I'm not wanting to enter into a "He's more Nazi than Him" type debate - I just see people portraying Fallbones and Großdeutschland alongside 916 and 116 etc. then of course there is the "dreaded" Waffen-SS - Even the U Boat Society has a fantastic portrayal of some of the bravest men ever to grow a beard but they Grey Wolves were regarded not only as an elite but amongst the higher echelons of the Partie faithful.........
I'm curious as to primarily - if GJ is "easier" to portray in terms of publilc reaction and if it is seen as a romantic ideal or is it still tainted to the same degree as other arms of the Third Reich war machine?
Please feel free to discuss your own choice of portrayal and up front I will say -I have no problems with any frontline, fighting portrayal other than the "anti partisan" units which we all avoid......... Strange because an old man of my acquaintance was LW-FJ and he was involved in anit partisan operations in France - and he was "regular forces"......
So this is not a pop - it's an attempt to have a genuine question answered.
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Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
I dont think its is any more or less "Nazi" nor more or less easy - having started re-enacting as a Gerbirgsjäger (7th SS "Prinz Eugen") I well remember being berrated for wearing a "Nazi" uniform by a lady at Bletchley Park back in the day - that said very few folk recognised the Odal rune then and probably now and 7th SS were most certainly anti partisan. I think that over the years the MOP's have become more interested in the impression than the history, the danger comes from the ranks of the press who still doggedly persist in refering to any German who served in WW2 as a "Nazi" and are constantly looking for ways to portray us fruit loops and closet fascists!
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Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
The whole Heer was steeped in the ethos of National Socialism, and remember everyone had to swear a personal oath to Adolf Hitler. So one group being less Nazi the others is a bit of a fiction. Indeed, it was individuals whose conscience and morals overcame the indoctrination where the real oppostion was. So the answer is no.
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I keep this picture to keep my hate strong!
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Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
It might have a rich history with traditions and such, but was just as fully a part of the National Socialist society as all the other units and organizations. It is post-war crap to say that the GJ or the Wehrmacht as a whole had nothing to do with the political stuff, as the whole community was based around the nazi ideology.
For reenactment I don't thing that the mainstream public sees or knows the differences of a regular Wehrmacht group and GJ, so no, they probably won't get a other reaction than one other.
For reenactment I don't thing that the mainstream public sees or knows the differences of a regular Wehrmacht group and GJ, so no, they probably won't get a other reaction than one other.
Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
I am liking this awareness - It wasn't present all that long ago - Shows things are changing.
Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
Intresting point Hoff as always lol
I think imho there seems to be more intrest in Gebirg and Fallchirm Units i reckon because
they seem to be more intresting and exciting than the bog standard Wehrmacht Units.
Pipes
I think imho there seems to be more intrest in Gebirg and Fallchirm Units i reckon because
they seem to be more intresting and exciting than the bog standard Wehrmacht Units.
Pipes
Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
An interesting discussion...
You must remember that following the Enabling Act of 1933, the Nazi Party and its leadership became the de facto leaders of the State for an unspecified period of time, thus establshing a dictatorship and the Third Reich as an entity. Following this, everyone in military service swore an oath of allegiance to the Fuhrer personally and the swastika became part of the military uniform shortly thereafter.
Its very difficult, if not impossible, for this reason, to disentangle specific branches of service from the Reich, its aims and objectives therefore and to State that any one branch was more politicial than the rest.
There is no doubt that the SS, by nature of its purpose, creation and idealogy was to all intents and purposes a dedicated political army and those that served were imbued with this political ideology. Then again, all children educated in this period and until the end of the war were taught the same way.
Certainly LW, WH and KM units were not created as political entities and some had a long and distinguished military tradition on which to fall back. The FJ, although labelled post-war as fanatical by the Allies (see Martin Poppel's book) fought with distinction and came through the conflict with an almost unblemished record.
Men of conscience could be found on all sides.
I guess the real test for a re-enactor is to know their motivation for portrayal of a specific unit; to be aware of its history, good and bad; to be personally comfortable in the uniform you wear; and to acknowledge that war, while it does bring out the best in some, perhaps brings out the worst in others - regardless of uniform, nationality or ethos.
You must remember that following the Enabling Act of 1933, the Nazi Party and its leadership became the de facto leaders of the State for an unspecified period of time, thus establshing a dictatorship and the Third Reich as an entity. Following this, everyone in military service swore an oath of allegiance to the Fuhrer personally and the swastika became part of the military uniform shortly thereafter.
Its very difficult, if not impossible, for this reason, to disentangle specific branches of service from the Reich, its aims and objectives therefore and to State that any one branch was more politicial than the rest.
There is no doubt that the SS, by nature of its purpose, creation and idealogy was to all intents and purposes a dedicated political army and those that served were imbued with this political ideology. Then again, all children educated in this period and until the end of the war were taught the same way.
Certainly LW, WH and KM units were not created as political entities and some had a long and distinguished military tradition on which to fall back. The FJ, although labelled post-war as fanatical by the Allies (see Martin Poppel's book) fought with distinction and came through the conflict with an almost unblemished record.
Men of conscience could be found on all sides.
I guess the real test for a re-enactor is to know their motivation for portrayal of a specific unit; to be aware of its history, good and bad; to be personally comfortable in the uniform you wear; and to acknowledge that war, while it does bring out the best in some, perhaps brings out the worst in others - regardless of uniform, nationality or ethos.
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Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
Herr Fwbl once again you bring to the fore a interesting point like our dear Sturmschar I reenact W-SS Gebirgsjäger 6 th SS Nord the 1st SS Gebirgsjäger Div and the only one that was allowed to wear the Runes .
Why do I reenact Nord well they were here in Finland along with Heer Gebirgsjäger units at the time our unit formed we were the only ones in Europe to do SS Nord and as far as I know still are but why Nord and not a Heer unit ?
Nords first battle at salla was a disaster and Nord was broken up and placed in Finnish units to train ,Nord was also the only SS unit to be placed under the command of a foreign commander the list is long so I wont bore those that are not interested .
Why do I reenact Nord well they were here in Finland along with Heer Gebirgsjäger units at the time our unit formed we were the only ones in Europe to do SS Nord and as far as I know still are but why Nord and not a Heer unit ?
Nords first battle at salla was a disaster and Nord was broken up and placed in Finnish units to train ,Nord was also the only SS unit to be placed under the command of a foreign commander the list is long so I wont bore those that are not interested .
Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
Ah Joel, I knew you'd have thought it out long ago!!
Regards to the Repper clan!!
Regards to the Repper clan!!
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Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
Thanks sir Regards to your family as well see you soonmikebie wrote:Ah Joel, I knew you'd have thought it out long ago!!
Regards to the Repper clan!!
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Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
But, is it possible for people to be aware that the GJ were as much a part of the whole Nazi system as the GD, 916, Waffen SS etc - yet to also percieve them as being set apart from mainstream "Nazism"? Having a chat with some media typees this weekend, we got around to the subject of admiring someone for their efforts and ability, without believing in their cause. You could turn it on its head abit and say that whilst someone may know that the GJ were not politically any different from any other branch of the Wehrmacht, their common perception is of rugged men who endured harsh weather conditions as well as combat, with no political motivation - and are therefore set-aside from the rest of us in a re-enactment context? Could this also be the reason why they are becoming a more popular portrayal? Or is it just re-enactors looking to get into something abit different? I think the latter is more likely to be honest.
Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
IMHO nail on head.Or is it just re-enactors looking to get into something abit different? I think the latter is more likely to be honest.
At one time it was W-SS flavour of the month, then FJ, GD, Lehr, forerign volunteers Standard WH, U-boat etc.
How i see it its reenactors looking at something different.
DAK next years new field grey anyone??
And that boys is how you take a penalty.
Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
JDR wrote:IMHO nail on head.Or is it just re-enactors looking to get into something abit different? I think the latter is more likely to be honest.
At one time it was W-SS flavour of the month, then FJ, GD, Lehr, forerign volunteers Standard WH, U-boat etc.
How i see it its reenactors looking at something different.
DAK next years new field grey anyone??
There's probably a lot of that alright....Just like BOB and the Airborne...SPR and the Rangers...
Just waiting for the hordes of Amis doing Pacific after Spielberg's latest effort...
Still, it raises a lot of interesting questions and a worthy debate......
Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
I dont think anyone reenacts GJ because it could be seen as "less Nazi". Just like people dont reeanct SS because it could be seen as "more Nazi". People reenact the branches or service and the Divisions they find most interesting. At the end of the day they were all part of the the same regime. So to try and argue anything else would be pointless.
Re: Gebirgsjäger - "A lttle less Nazi"?
i didnt join the 85th gebirgs
i kinda maried into em ...moving over from the 65th nacht
at bletchley park
they have been on the scene for many many years
one of the first gebirgs groups about ...there doesnt seem to me to be many other guys going into reenacting gebirgs
but to me i gotta say what attracted me to them was the guys in the group
not the subject
but i started collecting gebirg items as i went alloong
i kinda maried into em ...moving over from the 65th nacht
at bletchley park
they have been on the scene for many many years
one of the first gebirgs groups about ...there doesnt seem to me to be many other guys going into reenacting gebirgs
but to me i gotta say what attracted me to them was the guys in the group
not the subject
but i started collecting gebirg items as i went alloong
95th nacht..attached 85th gebirgsjeager
have enigma ,will travel.
have enigma ,will travel.