Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

U-boot, German Navy, Italian navy.

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Tychsen
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Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

I thought I would place this here as it relates directly to optical gear used by the Kriegsmarine , having come from the U-570 thread.

The Kriegsmarine used only Leitz and Zeiss binoculars - no others.
Leitz - commonly seen in the "Tuna Can" verision and the Porro II "rubber armoured" variety are commonly seen.
The leitz "Tuna can" * - a porous (body) , without decsiccators which were subject to fogging - quite good optically comfortable eye relief , good coatings but as with all German sets - push on filters (commonly a set of amber and red).
The "rubber armoured " leitz although a step forward in terms of desiccators and water proffing ( rubber top caps , objective bumpers and protection for the edge of the prism housing ) the set did not deliver the quality imaging of the blc or cxn "U-Bootglas" , the 8x60 Leitz (beh) was prone to gogging , and occular construction was complicated and it was not in the same league as the "slim" or "fat" commander produced by Zeiss ( blc) or Busch (cxn).

Zeiss - better than Leitz , built in desiccators , the characteristic focusing mechanism of the smooth ocular giving memory to the focusing which enable it to be "set" for the eyes of the indivisual user.
Better waterproofed and fitted with a rubber jacket (now extinct - no example having survived) was still dependent on the use of push on filters or more commonly the filtered goggles issued to boats.
Whilst Zeiss were the better set - returning a sharper image , gathering light better they still left the user at a disadvantage when it came to use in bright light conditions, that "sun sector" on the bridge.

The British naval sets came with a built in filter mechansim giving three different colours of filters to use from yellow , through to red and dark green . ( Filter colours differ from sets to sets) but at the flick of asmall dial the RN could deal with changing light conditions which caused potential problems for their German opposite numbers.

In terms of optical quality Zeiss sets always had the edge but leitz and the British issue sets were pretty even.

When the UBoat arm made the move to its own special issue binoculars all "blc" and "cxn" produced only the 8x60's had their own filters the bridge crews had to use filtered goggles in troublesome light conditions.

In rangefinder optics the German manufactuers did incorporate filter mechanisms but they never carried this on to hand held sets which has to be judged to be a disadvantage for the users. (In contrast the UZO's all had filters fitted to them).

When next you are looking at film footage or photos of U-Boat crews take a look , you can date photos with a fair degree of accuracy from what the bridge crew have around their necks and in their hands.
Some photos taken by Bucheim on U-96 , from his series of three books .
U-Boot-Krieg , Die U-Boot-Fahrer and Zu Tode Gesiegt
(Only the first of these three volumes was translated into english).

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This illustrates the typical early war mix of binoculars which existed - note the goggles worn by one crew member who is holding a set of "tuna can" leitz , the man on his right is using a set of smooth ocular Zeiss.
Imagine using a set of binocular whilst wearing sun glasses and it would come pretty close to how akward this arrangement would have been.
The cramped nature of the bridge is evident although there are more men here than would normally have been the case.
( DF loop ( retracted into casing) , periscope tube , and UZO mount limit space.
Bucheim must have balanced himslef on the jumping wire to take this photo - his shadow falls on the bridge.

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The right side of the same photo - another set of Zeiss 7x50 smooth - the small item hanging from the set is the User "kapp" retained by a dual spring encased in leather , these are very much sought after.

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How things had moved on - the sets her are Zeiss 7x50 ubootglas cast allum.. body rubber top caps , screw adjusted focusing which is "set" for the individual user (a screw head for each occular) under the top caps.
The size of the objectives seems much larger due the heavy rubber bumpers.
Luftwaffe style lifejackets and the early warning radars tell their own story , note the crewman with headphones communicating directly to the control room.

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British Barr and Stroud - the internal filter system did not add any significant weight to the binocular whilst providing a simple and effective light flitering system. ( AS can be seen on ther prims housings of the sets shown).
the was carried on through to the Ross "Vanguard" ( for naval use ).
The CF41 by B&S was still in use into the 1970's /80's.

The Kriegsmarine "deck mounted" 8x60 and the 10x80 ("20 degree") each had built in rotating filters similar to the Barr and Stroud arrangement -this was not carried through to Kriegsmarine hand held sets.
The blc naval 10x80 being one of the best naval binoculars developed for use at sea.
The late war photograph - note that the "Benutzer" on each of the crews binocular has been cut off - they simply got in the way .

Below , a better view of one of the many types of sun goggles issued for use.
The hard eye cups of early Zeiss and leitz sets would probably have presented problems or at least an annoyance to the user.
Obersteuermann Kronenbitter of U48.
(Photo from "U-Boat Commanders and Crews 1935-45 by Jak Showell - Crowood . 1998).
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

The waterproof jacket mentioned , today no example has been known to have survived the war, the thin rubber being vunerable to oils and the rigours of service use.
The photo shows Wolfgang Luth , standing in a relaxed pose, the other officer is Lt. Claus Korth.
(Photo from "Fernglaser und Fernrohre in Herr , Luftwaffe and Marine" By Dr. Hans Seeger 2004).

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Another view of smooth 7x50's being cleaned on board - the wooden boxes are transit cases for the sets , today they are hard to come by and hugely expensive.
A good view of the rubber jacket and the set itself.
( Via Dr Hans Seeger)

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A few of my own , the benutzer with the white tops - as seen in the period photo.
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

Mentioned above the push on filters and the two types of leitz 7x50.
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The "Tuna can" is shown first - the full Kriegsmarine Eagle is shown over "M" , the serial number on the set and "T" indicating coated lens along with the optical strength - 7 x 50.
The case is referred to as a "top hat case" beacuse of the nature of its large lid.
Hardly ever seen is a set of rubber eyecups which were retained on the interior roof of the lid by 2 x sets of metal clips , stud pockets on each side of the lid held 2 x ses of fliters , commonly red and amber.

This set had no desiccating system .

The covering on the set are quite delicate - rarely are as well conditioned a set as this encountered.

The rain guard (leather with a padded interior) was attached to the central "bending bar" by a three strand leather enclosed spring attachment , this has long since disappeared.
Two examples of this set are shown in the bridge photo shown above.

The nature of the hard bakalite eye cups on the goggles can be better appreciated .

The "rubber armoured leitz"

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Often described as being "U-Boat binoculars" these are in fact more associated with "E"- Boats .
They came with two types of top caps - one which could be held open and the other which had to be tucked open.
The latter must have been a bloody curse to use - having used them it is the only way to describe them - which is why so often this type of cap often lacks the ocular covers - the users simply cut them off for ease of use.
this set shows them clipped open.
The push on filters referred to one set of filters is shown.
Today these sets sell for approx. £450-500 , optically they are only average - no great shakes (IMO).
The rubber on this set is mint - perfect - rarely seen - more often than not they are missing completely - or are in various degrees cracked around the edges , stressed and worn around the "turret" / ocular mounts - the textured surface - often worn.

Under the top cap the only impressions are the beh code for leitz and the serial number of the set.
On each prism housing - a desiccator to absorb moisture from the binocular , this set was prone to fogging and does not preform as well as its Zeiss counterpart.

Eye relief is good and it is one of the most comfortable sets you will find both to hold and to use.

The case ( on its side beside the set) is more compact that the "top hat" , both have the naval eagle impressed on the top if the lid - on the TH case this is usually deep and well defined.

This set came in an 8x60 varient - issued to Captains - complex and costly to build it was not a success , design wise similar to the 7x50 model.

I sold this set for a premium price owing to ist completness and mint condition - in turn I bought a set of Zeiss Ubootglas and a mint feldgendarmie gorget.
The map is a kriegsmarine issue map for the "Danish Belt".
The advantage of the british internal filter system is again illustrated.

The two types of top caps encountered for the leitz "armoured" sets.

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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

Whilst looking out some stuff I came across these two forgotten postcards - I must have bought them for the Uboat / optical angle.
The colour card was printed for sale in Spain , the other for Germany - both date from the war years.

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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

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Two views of the purpose designed "U-Bootglas" the second model Zeiss and the 8x60 "fat" Commander.

The Zeiss glas when first introduced had flip up eye cups similar to that shown on the fat 8x60 and similar to it there was no additional rubber protection for the objective rims.
A leter model was introduced with waterproof rubber top caps and rubber eyecups and rubber objective bumpers.
The diameter of the oculars came in two sizes , a small and later an enlarged size - a similar binocular was also supplied by "CXN" - this is a rarer model , they also provided similar model of the 8x60.

The Zeiss 7x50 can be seen in the photos above in the photos from Buchiem's book , the bumpers giving an impression of size when viewed ace on.
The two circular plates allow access to the desiccating cells - these can be screwed out ( with the correct tool) to allow new cartridges to be inserted.
The small "bumps" on the top caps - these cover the adjustment screws which allow the set to be focused, the ocular lens moving forward / back as the screw is turned.
The raionguard on this set , in common to those shown in the photo has been removed , probably in the service life of the binocular.

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Blc 7x50 Ubootglas - the paint finish is almost perfect - texture wise this came in two types smooth and rough - this set is smooth - the difference - sand added to the paint mix.
Simple but effective.

Cast alloy body weight was 3 and a half pounds , 6 inches tall by almost 9 wide , they return 128 meters at 100meters a FOV of 7.3 degrees.

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Three views of the Blc 8x60 - "fat Commander" - issued to Comanders only .
Weight wise it is a killer - throw it over your shoulder and in a while you will know you are carrying it - optically it is at the top of the tree - it provides an excellent image an is wide angled - openning the top caps ( as shown and you add another few degrees to each side - the prims are huge - they simply drink in the light.
They are better than most sets you will find today , coating improvement being the main advantage a modern set will have.
Lifting this set to your eyes and looking at the horizon and you will see more than the 7x50 will return , detail is sharper view is wider.
Weight is the main disadvantage - most commanders preferred the standard 7x50.
The original strap I have replaced with a strong modern one , I really don't want to drop these.

The CXN model came with a graticule in them , they could be mounted on the UZO stand but it would rarely have been done .
This set is mid war issue and would have been "used".
The 60 mm objectives give an impression of the size of the set.
The body was produced in a cast alloy.
8x60 is almost 6 lb in weight gives 160 meters at 1000 meters , 7 inches tall and almost 10 inches in wideth.

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The standard smooth ocular (blc) as seen above , preformance same as the 7x50 Ubootglas but nowhere near as waterproof or robust, this one has desiccating cells mounted on the bottom of the prism housing. (As can be seem).
Rubber bumpers could be fitted to the set , weight wise much lighter than the ubootglas.
The slight imperfection on the left side objective is a small amount of lens seperation - the lens coming apart - easy for a professional repoair man to "cure" - as it stands it does not interfere with the view , the set is still completely clear after 60 plus years and the desicating celss are still working - which is amazing to say the least.

This set retains its bakalite "benutzer" which adds considerably to the collector value of the set.

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Kurt Petersen who surrendered U-541 at Gibralter, he commanded U541 from March 43 until the end of the war.
He was awarded his DK in gold on 13/1/44.
He was awared the High Seas Fleet badge for his service on the Panzerschiff Deutschland , he was 2nd Torpedo officer between 1938 and April 1940 after which he went on U-Boat training.
He served as 1WO on U's 146 , UB and 371.
( Roll and Busch - "German U-Boat Commanders of WW2"
The fat 8x60 hangs on his left shoulder.
Photo of Petersen from Steve Rohan's "Blue book".
Last edited by Tychsen on Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
West-Front

Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by West-Front »

Superb uniform detail in that last photo, thanks for sharing.
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

I must admit Cam it is an excellent photo , I like it for the detail and for what the man has over his shoulder - photos of the fat lady are not often seen. :wink:
( Although frequently she is heard to sing ! :lol: )

Certainly a man who has "been there" and who inspite of the conditions on his boat still presented himself in good order to see his opposite numbers.
( I have a photo of him on the quayside which is also very good - will try and find it).

Below - a rare opportunity to see inside a Zeiss WW2 binocular- a few months back some slight fog on an ocular - knew it would not be too invasive so I took off the covers and top plates to clean the moisture away .

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The quality of the build speaks for itself - highly engineered - Barr and Stroud / Ross seem so much more basic .
The rubber seals and gaskets are still perfectly intact , any deeper and I would leave it to a professional.
The depth of the painted finish is shown - about 2mm.
Also check the colour and brightness of the prims - these had been cleaned professionally by Dougie Biggart who runs Glasgow Binocular Repairs - a first class firm to send anything to.
When looking through them I detected a slight dullness on one side - which was why I took the top plates off - if you are checking a binocular out for "how it is" - do it by looking through it "the wrong way" - that way you will see the prism faces , cementing between prisms , anything "bad" can be seen.
(The dullness was on the internal ocular surcafe - easy to get to and to clean off).

Compare and contrast the 7x50 prims to that in the 8x60 - the diference is clear - the 8x60 is nowhere near as bright and "alive" - that is why things like this should be cleaned - approx. £45 will make it like new - money well spent if you are going to use them and money well spent even if you are not.
( We are caretakers for a generation only).

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A look inside the 8x60 - other photos have been lost - the prisms were cleaned , later I had the set professionally cleaned - now as good as the day they came of the bench.
Note the fine rubber gasket to seal the set - perfectly intact and still providing a waterproof seal after 65 years.
To date I have found three other gents with sets from the same batch , one only "90" away - it is quite likely that they once stood on the same work bench together only to be reunited years later.

What they came to me like - a post war coat of "black" having preserved the WW2 colour , it took two weeks to get it off.

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An added bonus - a set of filters for the set - something you would look hard to find - again it illustrates the push on nature of the elements , odd in such a highly engineered optical system.
The prisms , huge and held in a metal cage.

These are views you won't see everyday of the week. :wink:

Both these sets balance perfectly - pop your thumbs on the desiccator plates and place the set on your finger tips - if you need support tuck your elbows on to your chest and a stable platform is produced...thats what they did in 39-45 .:)

And under the top caps - makers code and serial number of the set.

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Shergar
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Shergar »

West-Front wrote:Superb uniform detail in that last photo, thanks for sharing.
Indeed the quality of the image is excellent , do you mind if i save a few of these and thanks for sharing your research with us all , as it serves to increase the forum users spectrum of WW2 knowledge pertaining to all aspects of the German military.
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

M , I won't be getting a big head believe me !
The images shown - just to show what is inside these sets , which were produced to very high standards.( For the day).

Today its digital , lens and glass are becoming a thing of the past.

If you have a set of WW2 optics it is well worth looking into them ("back to front") move them around look for signs of black threads , fungal growth , fog or dullness on the glass surfaces - some folks would say that by cleaning them you change them - I believe that by neglecting them you damage them - conservation should not be a dirty word.
Left alone the surfaces will degrade especially if gassed out lubricant lands on them - servicing and cleaning are a must (IMO).

Protection from the elements if you have them out - I learnt that at Portstewart - I had some cleaning to do and won't be caught like that again.

I saw a set of nice Busch "rabbit ears" at the weekend although nothing serious in them a clean would have a considerable difference to them , as something of hardened collector of stuff like this I would urge anyone using sets as part of re enacting to look at them with a view to having them cleaned - (even if you only carry them for effect) - you own a little piece of history and it is worth conserving.
My 2d. ( For what its worth , now off my soap box.)
Shergar
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Shergar »

funny you should say that Alan purchased a superb Range finder set along with its carrying box well maked and all its origional paint on it .
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

Look forward to seeing that :D
I have two - one by Barr and Stroud , the other by Carl Zeiss ( East German) - optically very good.
Rangefinders are relatively easy to get - its the transit case bits and bobs which go with them which are the problem - sounds like Alan and I will be comparing notes !
West-Front

Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by West-Front »

Hi

I thought I would post up my only pair of KM binos.

The case is marked beh 1944, lacks the straps etc and shows honest wear. The rubber caps are in excellent condition and there is no damage or imperfections to the binos at all.

I bought them from an armourer who was working in 1997 on the film " Thin Red Line" in Far North Queensland. He found them at a local flea market and literally paid nothing for them, I had to pay slightly more than that of course when I bought them , but not too much. Militaria wasn't his interest and he was happy to move them on :D

Thanks to Tyschen's post I now know a lot more about them.
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Tychsen
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

Cam , what you have is a mint set of leitz 7x50 similar to the ones I have posted earlier in the thread buying these today with the case you would expect to pay something like £500-600 sterling.
Although not uncommon in collecting circles they are hard to find in such good condition - the rubber top caps seem to suffer badly with age , a light rub of talc powder is a good way of keep the rubber in good order , that and keeping them out of bright sunlight and in a moderate and constant room temperature.

A very nice set , to be honest you won't find a set in better order - the rubbers look like new .
if the case has been as well cared for as the binocular you have one which I would hold on to if I were you.
From what I can se of the case , no shoulder strap - not a killer and in no way would it put me off them - the eagle on the lid - I have neer seen one in such good order - better than average to be sure, stitching looks nice and clean - that is really nice :).
Often described as "U Boat binoculars" they are more of an "S" boat item (IMO , for what it is worth !) a really well conditioned set - certainly in mint order.
Rejoice !
West-Front

Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by West-Front »

Thanks, right place at the right time I think, much like when I bought my MG34 lafette from Regimentals in 1996...the only DAK one they had :D

Excellent info about the binos, once again thanks for posting it all
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Re: Thinking of U Boats and design concepts for optical sets.

Post by Tychsen »

Unfortunately not mine - a UDF sight / binocular for surface firing of the eels.
Entirely waterproof to a depth of thirty feet , solid brass body , impossible to get into unless you have the correct tools and expertise - this is a very heavy set - you can just about "hand hold" it for short periods.
Internal filters , she clamped to the firing platform and information relayed was inputed into the torpedoes as the firing solution was worked out.
As best I can recall from the last set I handled they are a fixed focus set.
Today these appear rarely on the market and disappear just as quick.

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7x50 in size the best movie example of one in use comes from Das Boot. (Great scene).

It was normally the first officer who preformed the duty of firing via this system.
The photos used come from Kaplan and Curries "Wolfpack" ( Aurum , 1997.)

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The foul weather gear speaks for itself , the anti spray hoods - almost impossible to get - hens teeth are easier found.
The eye cups , flip upo to allow lens to be wiped clean , the bar which extents just beneath the prism housings , adjusts the intra ocular distance to whatever is comfortablke for the user.
In the baclground the man standing above hi m has a set of Zeiss smooth - the 1st officer also has a set hanginf from his neck.

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From the same book U-373 Ob.lt zur See Loeser on passge through Biscay.
The UZO is on the "stand" , the cramped condtions of the bridge are evident Loop aerial is extended.
The ratehr casual nature of dress again speaks for itself - shirt and pullover as the Skipper steals a smoke, other crew members a mixture of leather deckcoats and waterproof clothing , arounf Loesers neck Zeiss 7x50's , the man wearing the Bordmutze also has the "sungoggles" on.
To clear the bridge and get down fast took training , and being alert at all times was a dicipline which was both expected and enforced - the lives of the crew depended on members of the watch being able to act quickly - an aircraft could close quickly and the reaction to the"Alarmmmmmmmm!" call could be the difference between live and death.
What followed was a reflex action drilled in so men could do it without thinking , they would still be "going down the hatch" as the boat submerged beneath them and in such circumstances fools would not be sufferred gladly.

As you can imagine in a rough sea injuires were common and staying on the bridge often required that saftely lines secured you to the bridge.

The man standing was not doing it for fun - height meant distance and with a visual range of only a few miles a few feet gave you extra range , tracking a ship or convoy on the surface took concentration - visually the U-boat was at extreme range and any alteration in course meant that the boat reacted in good time if she was to keep in touch and not betray her presence.
As the lion" interviewed his commanders on return no one wanted to be in the position of explaining how they lost contact with a convoy - an "interview" with Admiral could be an experience as everything was subject to question and every line in the KTB was looked on.
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