Sweden to help ? Any chance for that ?

[Pikkusisar]

(I cannot f*cking believe this... the whole post just diappeared... Oh well. I´ll do it again. Sleep is overrated anyways. Next time I´ll know to save.)

So. As you might know, there are 3 official languages in Finland: Finnish, Swedish and Sami. The two first ones are obligatory to everyone (Sami is taught at grammar schools only in Lapland, IIRC) despite what your mother tongue is. The problem is that the first obligatory "foreign" language comes pretty late (nowadays when the pupils are about 9 years old). Of cource, during the thirties and forties the basic schooling was not as many-sided as it is now -and often it did not even reach all the children. Even when it did, knowing how to read and write on your own mother tongue was considered to be quite enough for farmers and factory workers (alongside basic math, history and biology).

Imagine it: thousands and thousands of small children (age range 0-14 years) were evacuated to a foreign country. During the winter war mothers were allowed to follow if their children were under 3 years old, but during the continuation war parents stayed behind. Most of these children did not know any other language but Finnish. It was well when there were Finnish Lottas and Red Cross nurses in the trains or ships, but the most important object of recognizion was a small piece of carboard that was hung from the neck on a string. On it was written the child´s name, hometown in Finland and his/her "serial number".
(A picture: http://www.sotalapset.fi/files/sl-kesku ... alappu.jpg )
You can guess how well this worked with toddlers. The cardboard pieces were torn off the necks and sometimes even eaten if there were no older siblings to stop and guide the younger ones. So, when the children finally arrived to Sweden, there were a lot of them without any means of identification. The people in the welcoming committee spoke usually only Swedish, that must have sounded pure gibberish to younger children. Naturally there were lists, but if there were hundreds of "nameless" children, the task was about impossible. So some kids were "MIA".

The other major thing that affected the returning of the war children was the gradual estrangement that happened during the years spent in a foreign country. Quite a many of them stayed in Sweden years after the war had ended, in many cases more or less unofficially "adopted", sometimes completely forgetting their earlier life, language and original family in Finland. Later there were many bitter arguments and lawsuits over the future home of the children.

There has been public talk about the traumas of the war children only lately, which I find odd. Just imagine: There is a little boy, 5 years old. One day his father disappears somewhere called "the front", only to return later in a lead coffin. Time goes on, and then his mother -the only parent and a trustworthy adult who is always there- sends the boy far away (giving incomprehensible reasons why she is doing that) to a foreign country, filled with strange people who cannot understand a word he is saying. Years go by, and the boy has finally a good, stable life. He goes to school, speaks Swedish almost like a native, has a bunch of new friends, the war is far away... And then, bang bang, his life gets turned upside down again. He has to leave his foster home and everything behind, in order to move again to a foreign country to live with a strange woman who calls herself "mother" and doesn´t speak any intelligible language. Now, what do you think these things do to his basic senses of trust and security..?

(By the way, the total birth ratio of Finland for the year 1939 was about 80 000 babies. Roughly the same amount of children were evacuated during the war. Just for comparison.)

[Pirkka]

That's a fascinating story, PS. I haven't looked into the Finnish home front at all closely, and it's really interesting to be able a human face to something that might otherwise go overlooked.
The returning, Swedized 'Finns' must have been horribly alienated by austere post-war Finland. Casualties of war as much as anyone who served at the front.

[Pikkusisar]

They tried to keep siblings together if possible. Which means that sisters were separated more often than not. My father and his siblings were held together (inside the borders of a small village) by his very strong-willed oldest sister. She was eight years old, and took her responsibilities very seriously. And, of cource, she could make her point in loud and clear Swedish.

I think that (after this weekend) I´ll try to find out more about the help Sweden was offering. Reference material ought to be readily available in any public library here, at least for winter war... By the way, the idea for sending children to safety did come from Sweden. So at least there they were volunteering to help.

[jmatchlock]

Several Polish born soldiers or their children served in the Finnish Armed Forces. One of the best known was a legendary cavalry officer Lt.Col. Arnold Majewski who was killed in action in 1942. He is well known on his (assumed) telex message to Poland: "Bravo Pilsudski. Majewski." after Pilsudski's great victory on Russians. I think if Pilsudski received the message he might have think "who the hell Majewski?". At that stage Majewski's rank was cornet or lieutenant.

(In Finnish:)

http://www.genealogia.fi/genos/70/70_38.htm

[Peiper]

Gruss gott lads , the last threads were very intresting, we in England had the very same problem with children being evacuated during the war. Some were evacuated to the countryside where some were horribly mistreated, they were used as cheap labour on some farms and were left unfed and had to sleep outside in barns some of them. There is also the not well known fact of thousands of evacuees being sent to Australia and Canada, thousands of these English children never returned which was very shocking and very shoddy of the British Government, nobody knows what happened to them whether dead or alive and the ones that did return told their parents of horror stories whilst being sent to these places. Over 200,000 children went missing after being evacuated, anyway regards members, from peiper.

[Franz repper]

There was also the children and Familys who left Lapland in 1944 when the Lapland war started between Finland and Germany , most went across the boarder to sweden and returned in 1945 to find their homes burn down .
As part of Finlands peace treaty with Russia the Finnish Army had to Remove the German troops from Lapland .
To start with it was a friendly affair but with time force had to be used in the end to stop the Russians Army coming onto Finnish soil to do the job.
The Germans were forced to move to the far north of Finland and make there way across the boarder to Norway .
All the German POW that were taken in this time were handed over to Russia and alot of the German weapons and warbooty were also handed over to Russia.
A good book to read on this subject is the Black Edelweiss by Johann Voss

Ingo many left lappland due to the Russians taking the arm of Finland the Lappland war lasted only 30ish days (thinking on the hop) and most of the fighting before that was in an area with few living in it .The Russians did move onto Finnish land as far as Kuusamo as the Rusians burt that as the left along with many other towns .Down south it was the same as many burnt there homes as they left so the Russians could not live in them

[Peiper]

Yup, you´re right. It is a winter war memorial medal. It is supposed to have a small metallic band like this:
http://riemun.huuto.net/auctionimages/9 ... 5-orig.jpg

(That pic is from Huuto.net, Finnish version of Ebay, so here might be a more permanent link, with English texts:
http://www.medals.org.uk/finland/finland016.htm )

...and that will definately be the last I will write here. For today.

(OK, one more link because someone is bound to ask about the next war´s medal... There you go:
http://flickr.com/photos/14575229@N06/2445264380
The medal in the middle is more accurately the Medal of the Order of the Cross of Liberty, Second class -given to NCOs and "ordinary soldiers". The officers get the some-or-other class of the Order of the Cross of Liberty. Which is actually cross-shaped. And now I´m going to get some sleep.)

Greetings Pikkusisar, any idea if the above Winter War Memorial medal is rare or worth anything? regards peiper.

[Franz repper]

Ingo the arm of Finland was taken by the Russians and still is part of Russia to day Petsamo was a Finnish town and port

Ingo Hofmann

i know you dont like the fact but Kuusamo was burned down by the Germans leaving and also alot of other towns and villages to Lapland .

Ingo Kuusamo was burt by the Russians ,SS Nord removed the church bells and hid them the returned in the 50s and showed the towns folk the place they were hidden And Have you read the book By Erkki Kerojärvi Vedin Miekalla Paasikiven Linja this sheds new light on the Rovaniemi fire

Ingo Hofmann

In the Deutscher Soldatenfriedhof in Rovaniemi there are 2523 Germans buired from ww2 so this gaves you some idea of the war in the north 1941-44

I am well awear of this fact as I am working my way through the names to find those from SS Nord who fell in Finland

Ingo Hoffmann

Franz the Germans also used Ruusian POW to bulit their bunkers and roads in Lapland and there are still allot of mass graves where the dead POW are buried .

Yes I know they used Russians I have a photo of SS Nord building a bunker with A Russian in the background ,There are many mass graves up in Lappland Russian ones from the Fighting
as the Russians just left them liying on the ground


Russian mass grave from the road leading to Hasselmann and Kaprolat hills.
Text says:
"To fallen comrades from 205. Sniper Division. Here is the grave of 191 soldiers."
Ingo Hoffmann

Please take a trip to Lapland one day with Antti and me and you can see for yourself what the Germans did up there and the large areas that were burnt you can still see the burn marks on trees today from the fires that burnt Lapland in 1944

As you well know I just cant pop off for a week I have to book my Time off well in advance of corse thats the problem with Full time work ,

Ingo Hoffmann

If you take a trip up there one day you can see for yourself ,yes you are right there was in the Area of Salla heavy fighting between the German and Russians but there was also areas on Finnish soil where there was heavy fighting between the Germans and Finnish Armys and also some areas of mottis where the Germans were encirced
The Finnish army lost alot of men removing the Germans from Finnish soil and also the Germans lost some thousands of men .

The Finnish troops were under pressure from the Russians to have the Germans out by the deadline ,Some German troops ended up in mottis even one Regiment from SS Nord but that is a diffrent topic , salla was ans stiil is Finnish soil ingo, Kestinki was one of the maim areas

But lets get back on topic

[Franz repper]

OK Sorry all lets get back on topic here is a list of weapons,Ammunition,and such purchased by Finland from Sweden
8. 75 mm Fild cannon Receveived in January 1940
48.75mm field cannon and 27,000 rounds Received February 1940

Received during the war
17. 105mm Field cannon and 5200 rounds
12. 105mm howitzers and 4000 rounds
4. 210 mm howitzers and 400 rounds
9. 175mm antiaircraft cannon
76. 40mm anti aircraft cannon and 144,000 rounds
18 37mm anti panzer cannon 45,000 rounds
100. Machine guns
77,000 rifles and 17,000,000 bullets
8 .training aircraft
8. Bombers (old models)
12 Gladiator aircraft (all to swedish volunteers)
8,000 volunteers
Ok think thats us back on topic lets try and stay here

[Ewald Koch]

Please take a trip to Lapland one day with Antti and me and you can see for yourself what the Germans did up there and the large areas that were burnt you can still see the burn marks on trees today from the fires that burnt Lapland in 1944

When do we go to Lappland as a unit anyway? Would be nice to see all those places and take some pics with authetic uniforms!

[jmatchlock]

Hope not out of line -Ingo ,my understanding you have more free time than Franz and the rest of the guys - so just my input : Can you do the recon and logistics for a LapLand Battle Filed Tour ? Thank You, Jay

[Franz repper]

Franz
I am sorry you are wrong the original Salla is now on the Russian side of the boarder , the Salla that is now in Lapland is a new town from after the war they used the same name .
As for Rovaniemi it was burnt by the Germans and also alot of the other towns in Lapland , if you read the book Lapin Sota by Toivo T Kaila you will find this out , He was a Officer in the Finnish army and it covers the whole Lapland war and it was written in 1950 .
The Deutscher Soldatenfriedhof in Rovaniemi hasnt just SS Nord guy buried there it was for all branches of service Army , Airforce , Navy .
The SS Nord glaves were originally near Salla on the Russian side of the boarder but where moved to the Finnish side before the end of the war , There were also some Germans buried in the main Glave yard in Rovaniemi and these bodys were moved the Deutscher Soldatenfriedhof some years ago .
I know there are still Russian dead soldiers lying on the surface in Salla and other boader areas i was talking about the Russian POW mass glaves in Rovaniemi and other places in Lapland .
The Russian POWs made most of the roads and Bunkers for the Germans in Lapland I have seen these glaves and there is one very close to the Airport in Rovaniemi .
When you go to Rovaniemi you will see that most of the storages for the ammo and weapons were outside the main town with Misi being one of the biggest storages .
I KNOW YOU THINK THE GERMANS WERE SUCH GOOD GUYS BUT THEY DID DO SOME BADS THINGS IN LAPLAND AND ONE DAY WHEN YOU GO THERE YOU CAN SEE FOR YOURSELF

Ingo this is about Sweden to help STAY on topic !!!
If you want to have a pop at me then start a new Topic!!!

[jmatchlock]

..Description: During World War II some 70,000 Finnish children (Finnish: sotalapset) were evacuated from Finland to Scandinavia, chiefly to Sweden. Most were evacuated during the Continuation War to ease the situation for their parents who set out to rebuild their homes in the re-conquered Karelia returning from the evacuation of Finnish Karelia. The first surge of evacuees arrived, however, during the Winter War when the Finns had reasons to fear a humanitarian catastrophe following the expected Soviet occupation.

In retrospect, the evacuation has been considered psychologically flawed, as the separations turned out to inflict a far greater damage on the evacuees than the damage suffered by those children who had remained by their parents in Finland. In comparison to Finland's approximately 23,000 military casualties in the Winter War, the 66,000 in the Continuation war, and the total of 2,000 civilian casualties – and the roughly equally many seriously wounded – the war children were, of course, not physically injured, let alone killed. However, their number is of about the same size as that of the war invalids, and many of them feel their sufferings to be ignored.

After the war Finland experienced times of economic hardship, and also substantial insecurity with regard to the Soviet Union's plans for Finland, which resulted in the delay of the return of the children for several years. Ultimately about 20% of the war children stayed with their foster families after the war, who often adopted them, which spared them another traumatic separation. Many more returned to Sweden as adults, when the prolonged post-war hardship in Finland pushed large contingents of unemployed Finns to Sweden's booming economy in the 1950s–60s.

[Enigma]

Franz

You write that "48.75mm field cannon and 27,000 rounds Received February 1940"

These most likely were weapons sent from Norway. As Norway has a border with Russia it was important that it was done "through" Sweden. This information surfaced this year in a Norwegian book covering norwegian efforts towards Russia and in particular espionage. There is a footnote about the geb. artillery and the 27,000 rounds of amunition. It was sent through the Bofors factory in Sweden.

[Franz repper]

Franz

You write that "48.75mm field cannon and 27,000 rounds Received February 1940"

These most likely were weapons sent from Norway. As Norway has a border with Russia it was important that it was done "through" Sweden. This information surfaced this year in a Norwegian book covering norwegian efforts towards Russia and in particular espionage. There is a footnote about the geb. artillery and the 27,000 rounds of amunition. It was sent through the Bofors factory in Sweden.

I did look into this and we did receive items from Norway in that list I found 12 75 mm Field cannon and 7,166 rounds could this be the same ? I will go into the list more and see what I can find by the way is the book in English ?